Bob Greenyer and the Temple of Doom

A topic appeared on LENR Forum, MFMP preparing some big announcement? In fact, the Facebook user, “Martin Fleischmann Memorial Project” is Bob Greenyer, and my training has strongly discouraged confusing individual actions and beliefs with those of a community, which MFMP is.

As is being pointed out, Greenyer has become manic.

Such collective actions are strongly to be avoided unless they enjoy very high consensus, and even then, it’s far better if an individual announce things. This blog is named Cold Fusion Community, and some original posts were by “admin.” I think I’ve cleaned all that up. I’m a trustee, and right now, there is no community restraining me (though there are plenty of communications to the end of developing genuine community.)

MFMP has been, in many ways, naive. Not uncommon with young people, eh? I met some MFMP people at ICCF-18, and I remember, I believe it was Bob Greenyer, very excited because he had figured out what Defkalion was doing, that made their reactor work. It was quite good, a very decent idea.

But the Defkalion reactor probably was not working!

But it was such a good idea!

When I was younger, I also encountered some major conspiracy theories. I remember one in particular, the fellow had proof! And it actually looked like strong evidence. Was he right? It was about the Kennedy assassination. It was at that point that I realized that it was impossible to discern the truth, without major dedication and work, and that appearances could exist for almost any theory. And that later led me to work on governmental systems that were trustworthy by design. We are far, far from this, we use archaic systems that were advances for their time, but seriously deficient compared to what is possible.

I also encountered, up close and very personal, what can be called schizophrenia. The symptoms here are unmistakable. I’m going to emphasize that this does not mean that Bob Greenyer is Wrong. Indeed, he might be seeing some realities that he is not prepared to handle. However, “not prepared to handle” means that he doesn’t have the background and depth — and support — necessary to integrate his experience without damage. He doesn’t have the training, he’s not disciplined. Yet. For his future empowerment, at this point, the best thing he could do is STFU and start learning.

The official MFMP web site seems to have nothing about any of this. That site has often had technical problems, I’m seeing quite a bit broken there.

Greenyer has discussed this on ECW. This was quickly identified there as signs of a bipolar disorder, the manic phase. Yes. Now, what are the signs, because telling someone in that state that they are crazy doesn’t work.

I’m not really sure what does work. I was told, when I was walking around in a similar state, that “they won’t let you stay this way.” I thought that person was paranoid. Who was “they,” after all? However, … I could read minds and a lot of other stuff. And everything had incredible meaning. And … they did not let me stay that way, I was picked up, charged with crimes I had not committed, and put into jail and, there, I went, let’s say, all the way out, and was transported to a mental hospital where the most effective treatment was probably feeding me dry mashed potatoes, which gave me constipation. That got my attention! Brought me right down.

Now, what about what I’d been seeing? Was it real? Some of it! In fact, one of the best stories in my life was what happened in the drunk tank when they were waiting to book me.  A genuine miracle. (I tell the story and people agree.) And, I’m sure, it really happened. It doesn’t involve anything so terribly odd, except it was merely not what we normally expect. Yet I was also not in what could be called survival mode. I wasn’t taking care of myself — at all. And I was talking to some people with what they were not at all ready to hear or understand. It took many years before I was able to be more effective. And real training, powerful and clear and reliable? Only quite recently.

The signs:

Some videos were linked:

(RedPill) is coming and Safe Spaces

This is not marginal. I don’t wonder that Timar wrote:

Those videos are freaking scary. Either Bob has lost his mind or …

Bob Greenyer wrote:

I have not lost my mind – I have no intention to shoot myself twice in the back of the head or have a untimely heart attack. Love life.

I had a close relative with mania. He might say exactly the same thing, out of the blue. Who mentioned anything about shooting himself, much less “twice in the head”? Do people shoot themselves twice in the head? Kinda hard, eh? “Untimely heart attack”? How would that be arranged? Now, he may have thought that he would turn up shot in the head twice. Or that he might be given some drug to cause a “heart attack.” Those things actually exist, cross certain people, it’s quite possible. However, those who have these tools and inclinations don’t deploy them to kill crazy people. That would be …. crazy! Unnecessary, is a better term.

I mentioned, recently, “if they aren’t shooting at you, it’s because you are not doing anything worth wasting bullets on.” That was considered some proof of megalomania on my part. So far, I’m not being shot at, so what does that mean? The actual training in transformation: it’s all meaningless, but to someone who is manic, everything is intense with meaning. Mania might as well be called “meania.” This intense “meaning” takes over the mind, and it can be as intoxicating as it is dangerous. This is not to be confused with creating purpose and fulfilling purpose. That is also dangerous, but it creates a life worth living, and isn’t characterized by a sense of evil and fear and sweaty urgency.

The purpose of my whole life came to a head yesterday when – against the protestations of some present, I gave the presentation I wanted at the technical university in Mumbai, India – from the heart and which has been revealed to me in the most punishing series of sleepless nights.

“the purpose of my whole life came to a head yesterday.” Yes. Mania.

“punishing series of sleepless nights.” Yes. That’s how it can start. Sleeplessness. Other factors can increase it: not eating. Dehydration. But the strongest factor is probably the attraction of finally understanding everything. It all fits together!

How do we know that? I think it’s brain chemistry, the “mechanism of meaning.”

I have shared the key components of how to ensure high excess – but the implications are going to shock you all more than I think you can handle – I need you all to video with your phones the (RedPill) video when it goes up.

As I read this, he thinks that the video will be super important, and that the Enemy will take it down. So if many people copy it immediately, he can still get this Very Important Message through. Notice, “shock you more than I think you can handle.” How would he know that? Perhaps he has been so shocked, and, yes, he couldn’t handle it.

However, the etiology of this might be more boring than that. Why would one inflict ideas on people that they can’t handle? Just to torture them\?. Just so that when that Destructor Beam or whatever takes their office apart, they can, in their last moment, think, “Bob Greenyer was right!”???

Bob hasn’t had time to think this all the way through. He is reacting to his own state, without experience, without a guide, and someone at that conference tried to tell him, to warn him, and, of course, he didn’t listen.

There was an old man in the room, who I had never seen before and not heard of – he looked amazed at what I was saying – at the end he pulled me over and demanded to speak to me today. That led to my visiting his facility – I have got mind blowing footage for you all – suffice to say – we have now at least 4 working technologies on 3 continents – 3 of which have been funded by the inventors themselves and 2 of which I believe are about ready to deploy – the MFMP must verify them for COP claims and Safety first before final judgement.

I have amazing stories to tell from my youth, when I was walking around in that state. Some of it has become clear to me, some not. The man who told me “they won’t let you stay this way” was right, and he did know what I was talking about, and did recognize my state. He’d had some training!  I was totally undisciplined, totally unprepared, and it’s amazing that I came through it alive, and I can also explain that, there are a couple of things I did right, very right, in the midst of my insanity, that then set up the rest of my life. Bob Greenyer may actually have seen some real technology. Now, what does this have to do with the Red Pill and the other crazy stuff?

But the warnings I give are absolutely sincere – not a joke and you will know why.

I don’t for a moment think he is joking. In fact, if he could joke it might be a path forward for him. Absolutely, he needs to understand how he will be seen. If he can get how crazy this is, and laugh about it, — even if he thinks We Are All Gonna Die!!! — or whatever — he will have more than half of what he needs to move on and integrate all this. One way to describe existence is as a joke that God created, and getting the joke is a truly great experience.

Bob Greenyer wrote:

Dods – this could not have happenned without you. You are going to LOVE the footage I shot today – 240fps slow motion of the plasma and the cavitation. Thing of real beauty – the guy is such an engineering genius and said repeatedly that right here, e-cat world, was his main resource.

I did look at the videos. Meaningless. No communication, other than Somebody is Doing Something that Looks Cool. However, if you know what it means, it is probably absolutely spectacular! Again, characteristic of mania: great meaning in something that has no intrinsic meaning. The person gives someone a piece of wood they found. It’s the secret of the universe. To them, of course, it is! But not to the person they gave it to.

MFMP. Is this new work going to accomplish the memorialization, the rehabilitation of the memory of Martin Fleischmann? Or is it going, effectively, to discredit MFMP and by reflection, Fleischmann?

Bob says that he was atheist, and no longer. Classic, again, onset of mania associated with a conversion experience.

He wants to “fight evil,” but if so, he hasn’t gotten the actual message, “resist not evil.” Establish justice, yes! — but that is not “fighting against evil,” and when it is, it creates evil. That’s what the evil people do, fight evil! Favorite trick of Satan. Kill the Witches!

The real message is one of peace, the establishment of peace, and it creates peace and freedom and brings humanity together. There are, indeed, enemies, but …. they have no power except a little, for a time. This is all an ancient message, it is not new.

Cults identify evil and fight it. Scientology, case in point. Of course, because they are fighting evil, whatever they do is then justified by necessity. At the core of Scientology is some real technology, it actually works, at least the beginning levels do. But Scientology believes in Good and Evil.

Now, what does this have to do with cold fusion? If cold fusion “believers” were falling into blatant mania like this frequently, it might have some implications. Greenyer might be somewhat more vulnerable from taking on a fringe science, which can involve setting aside “standard expectations,” but I can’t think of another example as extreme as what he is now showing, not even close. There are some old men showing signs of normal dementia, and that’s controversial. There are some highly reactive individuals who might sue or threaten to sue at the drop of a wrong word. This has gone well beyond that.

I hope that Bob will recognize his state, it is not that hard. I say this to him:

Bob, you have seen some things. What you have seen that is real will not disappear if you release your attachment to the significance of it all. What is real does not go away when we detach. “Good” and “evil” are profoundly attached.

We are all going to die, that’s a given, it is inevitable. Yes, there is this concept of eternal life, and that’s fine, but if you think that someone can “steal” the eternal life of another, you have attached to a very weird concept of God and reality. That eternal life is earned by what we do, or it is a gift from eternity to us (or both). It cannot be stolen by another, no matter how evil they try to be.

Trust that, and that trust has a guarantee behind it, and God will not fail in his trust. The only risk to us is in what we, ourselves create. If you are creating fear, that might befall you!

If a tree is about to fall on someone, show them or pull them out of the way. That is not creating fear, that is creating caring.

Ask to be shown more. That’s the real Red Pill: Reality. It is not bitter, it is sweet.

On LENR Forum, MagicSound wrote:

And please keep in mind that Bob’s “Red Pill” thesis is not being presented by or on behalf of MFMP, nor is it endorsed by those of us who make up the working group.

Dewey Weaver wrote:

This is an excellent exercise in which those who can handle the truth and those who cannot are outing themselves.

Separating the men from the boyz might as well happen now – sending boyz to do a man’s job hasn’t been cutting it anyway.

Aw, Dewey Weaver. That’s not going to be popular on LENR Forum. Apparently, though, DW DGAF. Remarkable: DW is more or less the gatekeeper for millions of dollars in LENR research funding. The refrain has been Go Away, Dewey, We Don’t Like You!

Now, he’s been pointing out that LENR Forum is “amateur hour,” for quite some time. We imagine that we are at the cusp of a new age of energy, but at the same time, we are playing with toy soldiers and toy ideas.

Suppose there really is a “secret government” with Very Bad Weapons. I figured this out fifty years ago: if they want me dead, I’m dead. Get over it. It would take governmental-level resources to stop that, and even they can fail. So what then? What is worth doing, given that the MiB (yes, that’s come up in this discussion) would hardly know that I exist. Yeah, there used to be an FBI file on me, but nothing worth wasting bullets on.

I decided to behave as if the MiB don’t exist. If they shoot me, well, I’m a canary, revealing that something is off. There were bomb threats years ago, but no bombs showed up. (I got a post office box at San Quentin, California, a fun place to visit, for that reason.)

Anyway, if one does want to confront this Secret Government, first would be to actually study the idea, assuming it is real. Is the first step, creating a video screaming about them? Why do I think this is a really dumb idea? No, the first step would be to set up secure communications, a relatively bulletproof network. That is difficult enough!

Now, MFMP is an explicitly amateur project. I always look at control systems. Who — or what process — is in charge of MFMP? Common in amateur efforts: one person who holds the keys. That this person might go, ah, seriously astray, does not even occur as a possibility, so, of course, they are not ready for it. Bob Greenyer is apparently the Facebook User “Martin Fleischmann Memorial Project.” Who runs the web site?

Oh, dear. Robert Greenyer. Basic rule for what I call Free Associations: many independent communication channels, so that nobody can control all of them. But, ah, they never asked…. I liked mailing lists, normally configured, because (1) they are free or very cheap, (2) the mails contain the actual email addresses of all who post, so the list owner cannot completely dominate, because anyone can then directly mail any of those members.

At this point, MFMP seems to have been caught flat-footed.

In a Free Association, nobody speaks for the Association, without massive consensus, and even then it is probably a bad idea. People speak for themselves, and perhaps there is a meeting and someone reports on it. Using their own name, not pretending to speak for the organization, again, unless specifically authorized by consensus.

Right now, I look at Facebook and at Quantum Heat, and it’s Greenyer-dominated.

So new? Well, here is a Greenyer video, Knowledge of the Ancients, put up by Homosymbion, i.e., Greenyer. This video was made about the Padmanabhaswamy temple. Greenyer tells a story about the temple being extraterritorial, i.e., not belonging to the state of Kerala. However, it does appear to be under the jurisdiction of the Supreme Court of India, which somewhat contradicts Greenyer’s story — which may have some historical accuracy, but may also not imply what he makes from this.

Forbes had an article on the Temple in 2015. The New Yorker in 2012, written by an actual journalist, who actually interviewed many people. What a concept!

(The Greenyer story of extraterritoriality doesn’t match those accounts. Rather, the temple treasure does “belong to the god.” And then the god is legally a “perpetual minor,” i.e., to be protected by the state.

Now, what is the Knowledge of the Ancients, here? Greenyer recounts some of the story, then says “It makes you wonder what these great ancient civilizations knew?” This is apparently connected with the palace of the former King being made of wood. To Greenyer, this has vast significance. So, that the King lived in a wooden palace, not a gold one, shows what knowledge? How to protect against a weapon that didn’t exist?

He starts the video with, about the Temple, “this is the safest place on Earth right now.” Then he laughs and says, “No, I’m not crazy.”

Until Greenyer knows that “Greenyer” is an illusion, he’s crazy, Most of us are, most of the time. The “Red Pill” is allegedly the “bitter” or “painful” truth. But truth is not painful, and this is actual ancient wisdom: it is attachment that is painful. Not reality, reality is freedom and even bliss. In my early twenties I amazed a friend by declaring that “nirvana does not exist.” But it obviously does not exist, because if it existed, it would be subject to beginning and end. Rather, it does exist, but not in what we would ordinarily call “existence.”

“And I ask, most mysteriously, are the birds free from the chains of the skyway.” Dylan was who he was because he was asking ancient questions. Greenyer, now, is getting a taste of what is beyond the ordinary, but it is a struggle and even a torment for him, because he has not abandoned attachment, he still has visions of “good and evil,” and he is obsessed, which is nothing less than being attached to ideas, thoughts, the conditional, rather than the unconditional.

At this point, probably more than anything else, he’ll need to rest. He will need simplicity.

On E-Cat World, Frank Acland tries valiantly to create some restraint and focus, opening a new thread on the Red Pill. 

Bob Greenyer refused to follow Acland’s rules. (or called it “impossible.” I.e., … compulsion.)

Frank I love you to bits. It is impossible for me to engage on that restriction in this matter – they are intrinsically linked.

He uses much language betraying obsession: “astounding,” “desperate,” i.e., supposedly, if one has found The Truth, one becomes desperate to share it.

In fact, reality is right here, with us now, and obvious, if we look. Someone desperate to share it doesn’t see reality, but a distorted reflection of some piece of it. I see this, it’s fairly common for people who come into contact with genuine training to become a bit unbalanced for a while. Occasionally a lot unbalanced. Religious converts are often far more fanatic than people born into a faith, or who have long experience and deep knowledge of it

The signs of reality are patience, clarity, peace, fearless action, trust in reality itself rather than ideas about it, humility (knowing that what we know is only very little compared with possibility).

Dewey is right, this is revealing much about the community, on all sides. There are some who are telling Greenyer what they see, clearly and with no blame. And others who are feeding the flames.

link to Update1

Update1 March 7, 2017

TWITTER. Mathieu Valat: (scientific advisor to the MFMP)

Mathieu‏ @mateMathieu Mar 3

Sad day for the MFMP.

Mathieu provides no clue to what he is talking about. We can guess, but …. Open Science is meaningless if process is not open. MFMP process has long been obscure.

FACEBOOK.  Martin Fleischmann Memorial Project. No comments questioning BG representing himself as MFMP. BG is using his MFMP position and apparent control of the Facebook account to promote the work of non-MFMP projects. This was not the purpose of MFMP, though MFMP never really became clear about the purpose. Operationally, it was to choose and facilitate replication projects.

To BG, this is of high and very sweaty importance. He has long had this edge, the intensification is not surprising.

QUANTUM HEAT, the official MFMP web site. 

The Facilitators are:

Bob Greenyer
Mathieu Valat
Ryan Hunt

All these were posted by Bob Greenyer. Most MFMP pages, however, do not show an Author.

The Labs are:

Earthtech International site:
Hunt Utilities Group site:
Mathieu Valat (no web site)
Permanetix Corporation site: Nikita Alexandrov

The MFMP Current Science article (2015)

Corresponding author: Valat. Other authors: Greenyer, Hunt. Greenyer’s address is that of Bistro Franz. It is a multi-story building, but great place to live! Makes me hungry.


First think I notice is that the title has been changed, to ” Who did that? Looking at the first post, by Hans Moog, I see

Did anybody realize that MFMP [Bob Greenyer] posted a very cryptic announcement on their [MFMP’s] Facebook page?

Now, strike-out (and bracketed insertion) is the standard way to update a post that contains some error or to reflect an updated opinion, if something new has been revealed or realized. So did Hans Moog correct his mistake?

Probably not. The post shows, in smalltext at the bottom: an edit notice.

The post was edited 1 time, last by barty: additional information provided ().

Speaking personally, I do not appreciate administrators and moderators changing what I’ve written without my consent. The LF habit of greening offensive text is acceptable, because it does not alter the text. The habit of deleting offensive text is more toward the edge, but arguable. Changing text without making it clear who did it and why is beyond the pale, in my view, and deleting posts was a step beyond that, and my protest is the obvious reason I was banned. The “team” very much wants to do this, and while there may be team members who don’t want it and might oppose it, they clearly tolerate it.

To the point, was this an “MFMP announcement”? On the face, it was. It used the official MFMP Facebook page to promote the announcement. It is part of a series of posts to the official web site that can be seen as leading up to it.

I’m always interested in power structures, i.e., how are collective decisions made? Mostly organisations are set up by people naive about what actually happens in organisations over time, so they take no precautions, assuming that everyone will get along fine and there will be no problems, because we are all friends, right? And then when problems do appear, there are no protective structures in place. It  is not difficult to set those up, and this is a technology that was first demonstrated about 1940, with Alcoholics Anonymous. Bill Wilson the “co-founder,” but actually the architect, studied previous organisations and what had led to their lack of effectiveness, long-term, and designed the “Traditions” to avoid that. It worked, spectacularly, there is essentially no competition to AA, because it incorporates possible competition! 

That can be covered elsewhere. Here, MFMP appears to depend centrally on three people: Greenyer, Valat, and Hunt. Greenyer has spoken and acted. Valat has only made a vague noise about “a sad day.” And Hunt? Where is Hunt in all this?

Many threads on LENR Forum are started with errors. Why is this one changed in such a way? It appears to me that an administrator is protecting MFMP. Why not protect, say, Industrial Heat? Or Rossi, for that matter?

Without clear guidelines for moderators and administrators, these things will happen, and they will not get better, I’d predict. Some sites simply die as a result. Some hobble on, a pale imitation of what they might be were they to create genuine consensus structures. The core of LENR Forum is probably one person, the Owner, and LF dysfunction would likely be traceable to him, because he is the one with the power to fix it. How would he do that? Let me point out that it would start simply by recognizing the issues, instead of stonewalling them. There are solutions, but they are not likely to appear immediately to those without experience. So, again, it starts with asking and then listening to answers, proposing solutions, discussing them, and then making final choices, to stand until review. Knee-jerk, abrupt, ad-hoc, reactive decisions don’t help if allowed to stand without reveiw.

Meanwhile, what else do we know? Greenyer’s condition is obvious and has become more obvious. While we are on LF coverage:

Magicsound wrote:  (March 1, 10:31 pm)

Alan Smith wrote:

Take it easy guys. This will be a VERY strictly moderated thread.

And please keep in mind that Bob’s “Red Pill” thesis is not being presented by or on behalf of MFMP, nor is it endorsed by those of us who make up the working group.

And who would that be and how would we know? BG has been presenting ideas for a long time that may not have been “MFMP ideas.” Or were they? It looks like BG ran the web site, and the Facebook page. MFMP allowed this to happen. Therefore MFMP is responsible. Who is “MFMP”? I’ve shown the three facilitators. I have seen no declared structure, however. Here, we see “Magicsound” representing the “working group.” Through what process? How do they meet? And … if this is Live Open Science, is the decision-making process for MFMP public?

(In my overall structural view of what I’ve called Free Associations, decisions are made by executives, chosen in small groups or even representing only themselves, responsible to those whom they serve. In a Free Association, nobody actually speaks for the Association, but may report consensus from a group. What BG is doing would be immediately recognized as “outside enterprises.” However, Free Associations do not take positions on these,” Essentially, they avoid any organizational endorsement of anything controversial. They exist to connect, purely, and provide mutual support for “communication, cooperation, and coordination,” the latter always being voluntary. They do not collect unallocated funds, to avoid conflicts over money. MFMP has violated a number of these, perhaps. The penalty for violation is possible organizational failure.)

So who is the “working group”? It would seem that Magicsound is a member. Science depends, very much, on personal integrity. Science is not anonymous. Someone anonymous can suggest an experiment, but anonymous reports require identified confirmation, and not merely “I think this is good.” Very much, this would be like anonymous testimony in a court. Not admissible. Ever. (However, exceptions exist which require disclosure in camera, and this is very much not the norm, and personal presence would be required, to the decision-makers — i.e., judge and/or jury.)

Is Magicsound a “volunteer”? Is this “Dr. Bob”?  Reading that bio, it’s obvious that MFMP is not a serious project. It’s adolescent play and joking. Yes, there are real possibilities there, but … I’m not seeing adult supervision. (Or, more appropriately, connection with and respect for those who have more experience.) I know that major LENR figures offered to help MFMP and were rejected. We will see, below, Greenyer’s manic take on established researchers. That would exist within a community running near the edge. Being “open,” MFMP is quite vulnerable to this. Mania can lead to high activity levels, and most mania is not so visible as what has befallen BG.

The MFMP user on Facebook would be Greenyer, which should never have been allowed without safeguards. The web site, QuantumHeat, has an administrative address

Admin Name: Admin QH
Admin Organization: Quantum Heat

[Admin address redacted per comment below]

Who is that? What is “Quantum Heat”? Most likely, an unincorporated association, but who represents it? Who is responsible for it? There is a Not them.

At this point, there are three people who have an official role with MFMP: Greenyer, Valat, Hunt. Has Greenyer explicitly denied representing MFMP? If so, why is he still using the Facebook page to point to his stuff? If not, why have not any recognized MFMP members posted to either the Facebook page or the QH web site with a clarification? If there is a problem with control of MFMP communications mechanisms, openness would require confronting it ASAP. Free Associations can function in the presence of extensive attack, if members recognize the problem of control and resist it. So, far, I have only seen Valat’s vague Twitter comment, essentially meaningless, and then Magicsound, which does not immediately translate to MFMP official. I think that Magicsound is Alan Goldwater, but how would someone know this? And how does Alan come to speak for the “working group.” He would be a member, I’d assume, and may know something, but he is not specific. “We (who?) met on Wednesday in a conference call and decided to dissociate ourselves from BG’s announcements.”

On what did Barty base his change to the original post? Rumor? Or something stronger? We don’t know, because LF moderation has a strong habit of not explaining itself with any clarity.

This could all be quite useful if the lessons are recognized and used in future projects.

There is a web site, with a paper hosted on MFMP, written by Alan Goldwater. Then there is an Infinite Energy article, written by Goldwater, Hunt, and Greenyer. It mentions “Bob from New Mexico.” That would be, I’d assume, Bob Higgins.

MFMP is soliciting money. When we give money, we usually want to know who will control it, or what process. This requires knowing the control or power structure. The Donation page is Paypal, there is no statement of who or what account this will go to. The request is signed “The Facilitators.” I.e., Greenyer, Hunt, Valat. However, the web site is almost certainly owned by Greenyer, the U.K. address telegraphs that.

Unless something else appears, I would assume that sending money to MFMP is essentially sending money to Greenyer. (If this is incorrect, this could easily be corrected.)

magicsound wrote:

.Fourty-Two wrote: So, don’t be surprised when people mistake this “(RedPill)” stuff as a MFMP activity

One pill makes you larger
And one pill makes you small
And the ones that mother gives you
Don’t do anything at all

Suddenly Alan doesn’t know how to use the quote facility on LF? (here is the post by Forty-Two) … and makes a joke about what’s happening?

bob asks:

For some reason, this never crossed my thoughts before….

Does MFMP have a governing “board of directors”? How are decisions made on where to send people, whom to send and decisions on spending funds and what projects to take on?

If some issue should arise, how would difficult decisions be made?

Note that I am a supporter of MFMP and appreciate their intentions and goals.

It crossed my mind by 2014. I guess some of us are a bit slow. (Actually, it is very easy to overlook these details. My guess is that it is all informal and that there is someone who signs on the account that Paypal deposits the money in. And I would guess that his initials are BG, but this could be incorrect…. Other funds are directly spent by the supporter of a particular project. In a Free Association, the central “treasury” would never hold much money, (being limited to a “prudent reserve,” which is simply enough to cover shutdown expenses, which would be very small for an organization like MFMP) and large donations would not be accepted. This was all worked out by the middle of the last century. But who pays attention to what former generations accomplished?) Few do. So they are condemned to repeat history without realizing it.

Alan Smith points out that there is an “MFMP member” in the Forum “best placed to answer this.” And why would the answer depend on what a single member might state? This is all making clear just how unclear it all is.

There was then a mind-boggling sequence in which Rends closes the thread, Alan states it will remain closed until there are “scientific findings” to discuss, and then Barty opens it because there are videos that provide no scientific information, just unintelligible waste of time.

Notice that it was suggested that Magicsound (probably) could answer the questions, but then moderator action would have made it impossible. There are ways to handle thread shutdown that still leave a pathway open. Nobody on LF seems to even realize the possibility. The software probably doesn’t make it easy, but there are ways around that.

Padam76 wrote:

can wrote:

(RedPill) | Breaking

From 20:55 there’s some information about me356From 49:15 … it gets interesting

Bob Greenyer: “Everything Rossi says is true. And this why Industrial Heat has been trying to destroy the MFMP. […] And I know they (sic: IH) are in the CIA. […] I know the CIA want that technology, they are trying to get it. […] You see all is connected, they are trying to destroy this, every single day.”

And much more…

Indeed. David Fojt wrote a response, “That’s right!” He’s kidding, right?

Apparently not.

Barty quotes Bob Greenyer, then adds:

So Greenyer just pretended it? :/:?:

The penalty for a lack of ontological sophistication — or simply not paying attention — is terminal cluelessness. Someone who is manic is not “pretending.” Rather, they have an association engine with a broken governor. They believe it all, intensely, because … OMG! It all fits!

Comments about me356 are also transcribed by can.

As I recall, can is generally a Planet Rossi troll, but transcriptions are, if done with reasonable care, helpful. He gets lots of points for it.

However, this is all Greenyer reporting what me356 told him and has no more probative value than the rest of the anonymous comments. Greenyer is not, here, acting as an eyewitness to anything but some kind of conversation. Email?

There is plenty of mishegas in the thread, I’m skipping over much.

Alan Smith points to the “informal AMA” with BG. He doesn’t mention that it is almost six hours of unedited work. No way would I listen to even a fraction of that, unless someone points me to a specific point in it. BG wanted people to save his videos to their phones. So a 6 hour video, which somewhat locks up my computer on the LF Page, and then says “Watch this video on Youtube. Playback on other sites has been disabled by the video owner,” is useful how? To see Greenyer fumbling and stumbling?

At some point I will get to this, so why not now? Let’s suppose that Greenyer is right. What then? He is putting his family in danger by shooting off his mouth. Because he looks crazy, he’s not going to help, but he probably thinks there is value in “telling the truth,” except that what he is conveying is not truth but a complex interpretation, that he imagines is simple. He gets the facts wrong, not surprising when one is obsessed.

If there is the massive conspiracy that he believes exists, to counter this would take a massive conspiracy, with discipline. It would not announce its existence from the rooftops, and on YouTube. So if there is a Rebel Alliance, it would go nowhere near Bob. And there is substantial danger if he should happen to reveal something real that is an important asset to the Empire. He will be of no value to his family, nor to the cause of truth, nor of LENR, dead. He has prepared the way, by deliberately appearing crazy — as he wrote — for him to vanish or die mysteriously.

And if it is not real, the conspiracy, then he is harming the cause that he attempted to serve, open science, he is making it look completely crazy. So, Bob, STFU!!!

Those who know don’t talk. He gives lip service to Ancient Knowledge, but actually ignores it.

can did some more transcription. In addition to the comment about IH and MFMP above, he has, starting at 49:15 of (RedPill) | Breaking — a few minor corrections I make in brackets.

[49:15] Bob Greenyer: […] and everything Rossi says is true. This is why Industrial Heat is trying to destroy the MFMP. Because everything else they can walk along, and give them a bit of money and say: “actually, you know: you’re doing some great research, but why don’t you do this and this?” – just what they’ve been trying to do to our researchers. And I know they’re in the CIA, because other people have told me.

Kenneth Shoulders worked at Stanford Research International for 11 years. With all the [Michael] McKubre and Edmund Storms… the only person he respects in the entire LENR community is Edmund Storms. Kenneth Shoulders, he says that in one of the videos.

And then he went to work at – this where it got really weird for me – he went to work with Harold Puthoff and Stewart Little in Texas EarthTech. And everytime we’ve had a result at the MFMP, Marissa Little from EarthTech writes to us and says: “Oh, you saw a gamma pulse out from your Celani wire in 2013. Can we send you a… help you get a sodium iodide [detector] so we can see what the signal is?” and then we ran the reactor in Padua in ICCF19 and they say: “Oh, you’ve been running this Parkhomov fuel from Parkhomov? You’ve received from Parkhomov for 30 days… 15 days… can you send us some of the ash so we can analyze it?”. And then I said I got an agreement with… what you call it… Vysotskii… calling over to do the biological transmutation for nuclear waste remediation – Cesium-137 etc. – And I know that the CIA want [that]technology. They’ve tried to get it. I spent 5 hours at ICCF20 speaking to someone… who was trying to first dissuade me the previous night and then trying to “nurture” me. But for Earthtech they just came out with “Oh, we can help you with that experiment”. Oh, I bet you can! Cause I know he works with… you see how it’s all connected? They are trying to destroy this every single day. And you know what? This is the coup de grâce, right here.

[51:26] Audience: But the point is, forgetting everything else, why haven’t we succeeded building a [successful] reactor [for LENR] ?

Bob Greenyer: Because it’s constantly being crushed.

Audience: But you are… the…

Bob Greenyer: I’m telling you where I got to in last couple of weeks. Everything I knew before then was/is a waste of time, which is why had to really fight these guys to tell you what the truth is. So, the coup de grâce is this. About this length on the table, Pons and Fleischmann… there’s a guy and he sits down and he says: “Right, should we decide if cold fusion exists?” and he puts his hand up. “Anyone else wants to vote?” and they all kind of put their hand up apart from one guy. You know what? The same person that’s trying to destroy Judy Wood’s career? Is the same person who put his hand up, to destroy Pons and Fleischmann. So, the project I set up to clear the name of Pons and Fleischmann has now, has to clear Judy Wood.

It continues, even worse. Every major conspiracy theory is assumed to be true. “You don’t need proof, the World Trade Center came down.”

“Science” is completely buried in what has happened to BG in the “last couple of weeks.” All the work that he was perhaps respected for, or at least given the benefit of the doubt, was a “waste of time.” Rather, now he knows “the truth.” This is what mania looks like. I’ve known high functioning manics. It’s deadly. One of them was assassinated, over religious issues. What he died for was an error, but he’d promoted it with great effort and courage. After he was assassinated, I tried to confirm what he’d found, to honor his memory. It vanished when examined carefully. It was mania, and, looking back, my last conversation with him revealed it, but … we are very reluctant to conclude this about a friend who seems otherwise quite sane. The mania was hidden, it took quite some time digging to bring it out. Underneath all the reasons and logic and evidence was raw belief in a special revelation, to him. He knew he was right, and he’d give ten reasons, and then, underneath it was, at the end, even if every reason was shown to be defective, one by one, he knew because God told him. I wish I’d known then what I know how. I’d have asked him lots of curious questions! Instead, I was simply boggled. But I still thought, at that time, that what he had discovered was real. I had, in fact, depended on that!

Confirmation bias can be a killer.

Dewey Weaver wrote:

Well looks like BG is insisting that we put him on that list. I was going to use pencil but have changed my mind.

I hope he finds his marbles soonest. I don’t think they are in India.

And then it appears that Alan Smith edited the post:

You might like to reconsider this post, and allow people to draw their own conclusions, whatever they may be. Alan.

This has come to be common: Alan Smith uses his privileged position as a moderator to push his own views. What Dewey wrote doesn’t stop anyone from “drawing their own conclusions,” and what Alan is doing is attempting to stop Dewey from expressing his thoughts. However, there is no edit notice. My guess is that LF moderators can suppress such notices.

(As is common, Dewey isn’t clear. What list? That would have been a useful question to ask, perhaps. I could guess, but so could others, and some of the guesses might be hostile.)

Shane D. more or less nails it.

Barty may be coming to his senses.

And then bocijn pointed to Dr. Judy Wood’s web site .

So, say I have some theory considered fringe, based on evidence I want to present, that I consider conclusive. How to go about it? How about having a personal web site that calls itself the Journal of [the fringe] research, and on the home page, have a two hour video. Great idea! Let’s do it! I could surely ramble on for two hours, I do it all the time on the phone. Then we can put it on the home page of, so that users’ browsers bog down when they look at it. That way only the highly motivated elite will persist. Who wants to talk to a bunch of conformist idiots anyway?

(bicijn shows a photo sequence purporting to show a steel beam disintegrating into dust. Looking into this, I saw many videos of that beam coming down. It falls, leaving behind a lot of dust, but the beam itself can be seen within that dust cloud, still solid, merely falling within the cloud. This was pointed out by other 9/11 conspiracy theorists, I found it first, with links to all those videos, but it is also covered on this page, specifically.

BG mentions Judy Wood, in a comment that will be understood by hardly anyone, surely his audience would not have been up to speed on Wood and the Hutcheson Effect, and other ancient history we used to look at Back Then. I suspect that the “non-voter” in that very ancient image (I’m suspecting of the APS meeting in Baltimore) must have written something about Dr. Judy. Therefore CIA.

Basically, the cluelessness BG demonstrates is of his audience and what can be communicated, and how what he is saying will be received. He knows he will look crazy, that much is clear, but what is the purpose? He seems to be thinking that there will be some immediate disaster, and everyone should stay away from buildings of metal and glass, because they will be vaporized. And, of course, this is connected with the huge gold hoard at that temple in india and that the king that protected that lived in a wooden house. Proof!!!! And this is exactly what passes for proof when one is manic, and if someone is manic but still has a functioning mind, that can be recognized. I.e., “I’m crazy, therefore I need to be careful.” That is a choice, and does not involve denying the “visions” seen. Rather, it can allow them to be more deeply understood, and this isn’t likely to happen in a couple of weeks. Again, BG, STFU! From the Haight in ’68: May the Baby Jesus Shut Your Mouth and Open Your Mind.

Barty does explain in the thread why he changed the name, and he also moved it to the “Trash” forum.

Very few people read LF using the forums, but use Latest Posts and Unread Posts if registered. In fact, if one blocks a user, they still show up in those lists. I just looked at the Forum unregistered and the thread is #2 in latest posts. That move was useless. Barty earlier unclosed the thread that Rends had closed (with Alan Smith approval) because of the “science” videos — that showed nothing. The long-established habit, and it was well in place by around a year ago: don’t ask and discuss before making major changes, just make them. We Are The Staff.

However, Barty’s explanation refers to “other MFMP members” having “distanced themselves.” So far, only Magicsound. The definition of “MFMP member” is vague. Yes, Alan Goldsmith is certainly a major figure. Valat didn’t say anything clearly, and I’ve seen nothing from Hunt, nor from Bob Higgins. But I’m still looking around. Maybe on ECW. Which I discovered as a quasi-official place for information on MFMP to be found. Have they no shame?

I started to look at ECW. The Red Pill thread was closed after over 400 comments in three days…. ECW can be very difficult to read, and a thread with 400 comments is ridiculous there. So I still don’t know if any other “MFMP member” showed up to disown the affiliation.






Author: Abd ulRahman Lomax


46 thoughts on “Bob Greenyer and the Temple of Doom”

  1. I reread the original post here. I can still stand with it. What I wrote about has been obvious to many, and is not the fanatic pseudoskepticism or hiding from unpleasant realities that Greenyer imagines. It’s advice from someone with longer and deeper experience than him. Obviously, not the same experience, but many similarities.

    Today I saw an ECW post that referred to an MFMP video, MFMP claims proof of LENR. This demonstrates what is most seriously astray with MFMP as handled by Greenyer. I started to watch that video. After about 15 minutes of nothing, with Greenyer et al fumbling around, I gave up. Do that to your audience, you won’t have an audience, unless they worship every crumb that falls from your mouth. This is not Live Open Science. It’s Live mumbling and fumbling.

    Video is a poor way to present what is allegedly “strong evidence for LENR.” I’m working on podcasts with Ruby Carat. I assume she will be presenting edited audio. I also assume that it will be transcribed (I’ll do it if nobody else does, because critique largely requires a text version or it all becomes way too cumbersome. And I want critique.)

    The “presentation pdf” linked above isn’t much better.
    This is a 23 MB file, 21 pages.
    ‘CAB Story’ > SUM(A + B + C). The whole is greater than the sum of its parts. If believed as anything other than an imagination that can suggest exploration, this is a classic ontological error. This is not science, it’s mania.
    I’m starting a page here to study this. The format of the pdf makes this difficult, so it’s taking time. This is it.

  2. As I saw with your long, tedious missives on Rossi, you like too much your own writing. It is clear what your purpose in the community is, either by accident or by design.

    Since you mention it, please can you remove the addresses from the above article as my family do not appreciate being doxxed.

    Since I like doing productive things, I think we are done.

    1. This was what I do: the ownership of the domain QuantumHeat is relevant to community purposes. If you had acknowledged ownership, if the structure of MFMP were transparent, I would not have needed to even look. It is trivial to hide domain registration data if it’s important. I have never done it because my stand is that “open” is necessary. Identities matter in science, relating to probity. I have redacted the information, but anyone can still, at this point, easily find it. (The registration was updated today but the address is still there. I do not have access to historical registration data, but anyone can buy that. Cat out of bag, Bob.)

      You are shooting the messenger, missing the basic argument: if there is a conspiracy as claimed, you and your family are at great risk. If not, not.

      I don’t think that conspiracy exists, not as you imagine. If it does, then maybe I will turn up dead, if what I write damages their agenda. But I will turn up dead anyway, in not terribly long. We all will. So: “Live free or die,” the motto of New Hampshire, just a way up the road from me.

      If I did conclude there was a conspiracy, I would not start yelling about it. To confront a massive or powerful conspiracy takes discipline and coherent organization, redundant, probably cellular. You don’t have that, not even close. The opposite. The one safety feature of how you are operating is that you are obviously insane and so there would be little risk of your work being harmful to them, because what you claim will be a series of red herrings that would actually protect the conspiracy by burying it in irrelevancies.

      Good luck with “productive things.”

        1. I stayed home and saw the eclipse. Only a partial, of course. But got some iPhone images of it. I used a pinhole to reduce light input to the phone camera. It worked, even though there were lots of clouds, the sun occasionally peeked through enough to see the eclipse shape.

  3. Here

    Warning, it is over 5 words in length and was not written by you, so I expect you will give up long before you risk opening your mind to another piece of the puzzle.

    1. It starts with an error. It was not 1988, it was 1984. Describing this event as a singularity is just what I’d expect from someone with a few screws loose, like Russ George or you.

      What we have as what actually happened is massive heat from a cubic centimeter of loaded PdD. Too many people think they have explained something by giving it a name.

      Especially people prone to believing they have found something of vast significance.

      Pons and Fleischmann allowed what they found to be called “cold fusion,” creating enormous confusion, because they didn’t really have the evidence it was fusion, even though, now, the evidence exists that it is probably some form of fusion.

      Strictly speaking, that wasn’t an “experiment.” It was a beginning exploration. It was absolutely not controlled, and they didn’t keep the materials (mind-boggling in hindsight). Nothing in their later work confirms a phenomenon like what they found and speculate happened, but maybe. There have been intentions to repeat those conditions. I don’t think anyone has been successful.

      What we do know about LENR is that it probably requires the solid state, it probably requires structures. There is no clue of it occurring in the liquid phase. (And, no, a single anecdote is a poor clue). We still don’t know how the energy of fusion is released in cold fusion, so understanding the exact sequence of events may not yet be possible. I.e., what’s the time scale? Is energy stored for a time?

      I see no reason at all to suspect that conditions for the formation of a singularity would exist in that cubic centimeter of palladium. It is, after all, a substance which has been well-studied. The FPHE is a surface effect. However, with a few loose screws, you can get quite excited. OMG! A Singularity! If a singularity actually formed, I’d expect more damage than a hole in the lab bench and a crater in the concrete. I’d expect a hole in the floor going down quite a way, if, indeed, it ever stopped.

      I’m not suggesting your tighten your screws. I’m suggesting that you go all the way, don’t stop with half-baked ideas, go for the pure essence of being, go for the cause of causes, go for infinite light and let it burn away all these narrow ideas. Oh, and take good care of your family.

  4. The presentation ran from 13m48s to 42m16s – I gave you the start.

    Whatever you think of me or those involved in the ‘CAB Story’, this is testable, no opinion matters – only what nature tells those that try – how much trying do you do?

    I watched silently as you played your part in the Rossi story, I can’t answer for him, but I can for myself – your characterisation of me is plain wrong, so wrong that I find it difficult to consider you a credible source moving forward, you don’t understand what I was doing and that is by design. By constantly trotting out 1000s of words justifying how you do not even wish to consider evidence, does you a disservice. I expect far harsher attacks as we move forward.

    In the original ‘hit piece’ above, you set out to paint a pre-conceived picture of me, without speaking to me, you went through a process of confirmation bias to sell your narrative. What a waste of your life (that is, if you are not paid) since at the same time, I was eating fresh seafood and enjoying a relaxing beech holiday with my family – it was so funny, my wife would turn to me and say ‘why are these people so concerned about you’, we had a good laugh. There are things you don’t know about me, just one word – strategy – thank you for playing your part.

    Yes, Pons and Fleischmann did Pd D, but their most important experiment, and you know it, is the 1CC singularity, time to give up the charade.

    I have copied this post.

    1. My ontology does not include “right” and “wrong” as discriminable in reality, they are fantasies or sometimes markers in games.

      Your ontology might depend on right and wrong. Good luck with that, you will need it.

      If there are errors in the “hit piece” above, please point them out specifically. Opinions don’t matter. I’m more impressed by “fresh seafood.” That’s real.

      Most of your comment is not intelligible for me. So for whom did you write it?

      What is the “1CC singularity”? No, I don’t know it, as you claim, I don’t recognize the phrase.

      By the way, while any web site may disappear, I don’t fully delete comments, if I think they should not be displayed, they go in the Trash, but may be resurrected from there if a writer needs a copy. I hardly ever delete a comment, though.

    1. Bob, evidence generated through the file drawer effect can seem statistically overwhelming. There must be some causal relationship! I knew a man who found amazing facts about letter frequencies in the Qur’an. He was completely convinced, and he convinced many others. I had looked at his work with a thought toward verfiying it. I ran into problems, and didn’t follow up. He was assassinated. In honor of his memory, I went back and looked more carefully. It was the file drawer effect, that became completely clear from a study of the history of his discoveries. He kept looking until he found something amazing. Then he stopped looking. He had counted incorrectly, but when he found something amazing, he stopped checking. He found amazing results in incorrect data. When an error was eventually found, he found new ways to recount, to restore his “miracle.”

      You are looking at a very large body of data. It’s well-known, if you are going to compare results in order to consider one result comparable to another, the comparison criteria must be set in advance; otherwise, if they can be changed according to the data, the correlation found can be an artifact of the search process. Such post-hoc correlations are, at best, clues for new investigations based on clear standards ab initio.

      The entire cold fusion field was afflicted with this, with widely varying experiments considered “confirmation,” or even “replication,” because of this or that resemblance. Even the best LENR evidence, which I cover in my Current Science paper (2015) is afflicted with this, but to a lesser degree, and that’s why I wanted to see that work confirmed with higher precision. (Within the field, this was opposed, to a degree, being considered a waste of money, when so much else was crying out for study. That was, my opinion, short-sighted, because a strong confirmation, properly handled, could break the logjam preventing integration of LENR research with the mainstream. If not, then we would have a much better understanding of a now-more-visible problem, possible suppression, and we could develop more focused strategies, dealing with reality and not merely suspicion.

      I started the video and gave up quickly. Bob, you know the story of the boy who cried wolf, I presume. It might not be true, but from what you have ‘cried,’ your voice now communicates: this is not going to be short, as claimed (and the “short presentation” is more than an hour), it is going to be long, disorganized, and boring. You need to work with others, if you are going to continue. Basically, you blew it, and it can be difficult to recover. You could recover, but you would need to find the foundations of your own belief system. That is not necessarily difficult, but … it is also something that, almost by definition, you cannot control. You could be trained, but you would need to recognize the necessity.

      So I looked at the PDF, and my comments above were prompted by it. You claim overwhelming statistical evidence, but you actually presented none. Just this “hot fact” and that, loosely connected. This is the stuff of pseudoscience and, as well, conspiracy theories. It can be incredibly enticing, my old friend gave his life for it. It led him to many other beliefs, that I saw as face-palm idiotic, basically wrong, as to what I knew very well from study and observation. I once went through one of these with him (he was, by the way, a very nice guy, a congenial host, etc.) This is the way I have told that story: He had ten reasons for his belief. We looked at the first argument. Carefully examined, it led to the opposite of his conclusion. Not a problem, because there were ten reasons. We did the same with the next. Not a problem, because there were ten reasons. We came to the end, but there were still ten reasons. And then the kicker: he knew he was right because God had told him. At that point, I gave up. Now, I wouldn’t.

      I’d ask, “What did God sound like? How did you know this was God? What were the correlates of that experience?” Bob, I experienced a schizophrenic break in my twenties. I know what it feels like. I also know that this is a consequence of how the brain works, of brain chemistry affecting the mechanism by which we recognize “truth.” Everything was intensely meaningful.

      Was I “wrong”? Not exactly. However, that intensity is a major clue. It’s an emotional response, and it is literally untethered. And this is a huge topic, and I wish you full success in finding the foundations of your experience, and especially at finding peace and the magnificent effulgence of reality in them. It is there if you look with patience, and a side-effect can be, particularly with some training, that you become a far more effective communicator.

      1. This simple person thinks
        Bob is one of the best communicator in LENR.
        Except for the technical part that I have trouble with he is easy
        and interesting to follow.
        He even has a sense of humour that I find rare in
        Lenr Land.
        I hope he gets working with
        Suhas soon.

        1. He may communicate well with people who think like him, who share similar world-views. Here, though, he was attempting to communicate with me. Is it possible to communicate with me? Can he communicate with the mainstream? Which, by the way, basically means “most informed people,” even though we know that the mainstream can be in error. How do you communicate with people you believe are wrong? That belief is very likely to disempower you, it takes something else, telling people they are wrong usually fails, unless they are very unusual. That is practically never where genuine communication begins, the kind that can move beyond obstacles and recover from breakdowns.

          If Bob is willing to learn how to communicate with me, it will make a difference with his communication with the rest of the planet. I want him to be successful, I don’t want him to fail. I tell him what I see, and it doesn’t matter if I’m right or not. I don’t care about “being right,” I care far more about being honest, authentic, and sharing my experience.

  5. Did you listen to the first audio recording of me and Suhas, when I had my first conversation with him. Because if you had – you will know that he told me that using his foil making apparatus, he saw Titanium re-bar glow ‘red hot’ and Iron ‘melt’… IN A WATER BATH – now, think on that for a minute. This is what got Suhas developing LENR. This is what I shared with everyone and no one can see when it is right there in front of them. I didn’t want to know this – but I can’t unknown it.

    Now explain how someone in steel toe capped boots could stand in ‘molten iron’ for an hour cleaning up at ground zero (from testimony) without their feet cooking. Explain steel re-bar glowing in free air weeks later and Aluminium glowing and ‘dripping’ If you had even cast molten aluminium as I have, you would know that it does not glow, not even when molten.

    Please listen to the recording carefully.

    I know that it must be difficult for you to come to terms with this. I at least have had the hands on experience to know when I am seeing something that is not normal physics.

    1. I’ll look at that recording, but, Bob, my world view is not based on “normal physics.” My long term interest is consciousness itself, in itself, and how we know what we know, or think we know, and how we create the future. I would not expect molten iron at ground zero. Nor melted steel. I have worked with thermite. It’s a fast reaction that does not depend at all on air. Yes, it could create molten iron and it would cook those feet, if that iron remained molten. But people can readily see what isn’t there, it happens all the time, and the reverse, they can miss what is right in front of them, and that’s normal and routine. What is reliable, Bob?

      When you know the answer to that, everything else will not seem so important.

    2. I listened a bit. Part of how you are disconnected from reality is in understanding how to communicate. What you are doing communicates very poorly. It may be incredibly meaningful to you, but I am not motivated to take the time to listen to that recording, more than the little that I did. It is difficult to understand, and most of it is is, frankly, boring. If there was a transcript (is there?), I could scan that quickly. It’s work to make a transcript. I have done that kind of work, years ago. Of entire meetings, with much activity. It was a lot of work, but what I learned was priceless.

      Plasma electrolysis can melt metals, and “underwater.” That is not out of the ordinary, though it might seem so. Aluminum melts at 660 C. It is low emissivity, and may only appear dull red at melting point in a dark room. However, oxide on the surface can glow, however, aluminum oxide emissivity is much higher. As well, if the molten aluminum is much hotter, it would glow brightly.

      One of the signs of attached belief is that ignorance is considered a proof of something. “How could …” is a question that is asked, and then some explanation is considered proven if no other explanations are known, and even if that explanation is, ah, very much unexpected. “How could” can lead to idea to be tested, but limitations on imagination are not limitations on reality.

      By the way, welcome to cold fusion community. About time you showed up here, don’t you think? Was it you that I remember at ICCF-18, very excited that you had figured out how the Defkalion reactor worked. It was a good idea, actually, but watching the Defkalion video there was a complete waste of time.

    1. How would I do that, Bob? (your prior comment, redundant to this, is deleted. Your comments will now appear without needing approval).

    2. Hi Bob,
      I can see what you are trying selflessly to do for the field. Please do not take another viewpoint as a criticism but try to get something out of it if you can.

      This is an old thread. My comment about my wife meeting Abd was very real. And I would say quite accurate. If you would like to comment here I would love to ask you questions. He (Abd) cannot post on either ECW or LF. This limits the conversation and this is something that drives me away. Please come here and discuss.
      What you are doing is interesting but the last year has been questionable and you have to step back and look at it (the honest questions) as something positive. You have seen so many things. But this would require more than a pot shot here. So please respond if you want to.

      1. I could post on LENR Forum if I chose to, but I choose to respect the right of a Forum owner and delegates to administer it. I can post on ECW, the only restriction being that I’m on moderation. I wrote to Frank about it, because he’s wasting moderator time. He decided to keep me on moderation. My Disqus account. Rejected posts are so rare that it would be far more efficient to allow me to post directly and then delete if necessary. (I can see deleted posts in my account, they are not deleted from it.) However, it’s his site!

        Mostly, I stay away, because there are endless arguments that resolve nothing. I sometimes present something simple and clear, and sometimes it may make a difference. Planet Rossi is starting to ask Rossi questions. So far, though, he gives them a bullshit answer, avoiding the question, and it seems to satisfy them. Some of these situations are becoming so obvious that “Planet Rossi” could be considered the name of a religion, a body of firmly-held and heavily defended belief. Response to the Alan Fletcher Prominent Pump experiments shows this. People who “believe in” Rossi are starting to accept that Rossi makes huge blunders. But, hey, he obviously believes in what he’s doing, therefore …. therefore what? He also lies, or, to be more careful, he writes and says things that a normal person would recognize as misleading and deceptive in effect.

        Common argument, I’ve seen it many times. If Rossi were a fraud, he’d have to be crazy to sue his mark! Indeed, he would, wouldn’t he? Why is “crazy” unthinkable as a possibility?

        When we know why, we have found a door to transformation, to a vast realm beyond crazy. We have found what stops us and keeps us stuck. It’s ancient wisdom, not new.

        By the way, Rigel. It was such a pleasure to meet you and your wife, and to spend a few days with you on your boat, not to mention visiting Nagel (core of the “believer” scientists, though I don’t want to insult him with that term) and Kidwell (core of genuine skeptics who have paid their dues, who are definitely part of the “conversation”)

  6. This was really interesting until you started including comments about Dr Judy Wood’s research and website.

    It appears you have not watched her lectures
    Not studied her website in depth
    Not read her book

    So, you make too many assumptions about what she says. That’s bad science isn’t it? You can learn, or you can deny and ridicule. Which is it to be?

    Feel free to say “thanks for the info! I will study it!” Though I am not confident you will say this.

    1. Did I make some mistake? Is there some error in what I posted? What assumptions about what Judy Wood says? You express what appears to be judgments, but you don’t provide a basis for them, other than your suspicions. I don’t claim that my opinions, if I expressed them, are “scientific,” necessarily. You seem to think that they should be. You appear to be presenting a dual choice: Learn or deny and ridicule. You have not pointed to actual denial and ridicule, so this is ungrounded. As to learning, I rarely watch videos. Commonly, the information density is far too low. I would look at transcripts, or summaries, probably, but you don’t point to that.
      The first video: the text introduction asks questions that incorporate assumptions I am not willing to take on. No interest in watching, then.
      The second video purports to be a compilation. No interest is created for me sufficient to spend the time to watch. I have watched videos purporting to show the effects of an energy weapon on 9/11. I don’t see it, the claims appear to be fluff, the evidence far too thin, based on shallow appearance, contradicted by other evidence.
      What does all this have to do with the purposes of this blog?
      So, absent that foundation, I am not promising to look again.

  7. Abd,
    I hope this thread below is getting your attention. It is one of the best threads in recent memory. Packed with background urls. Jed, THH, Kshanahan, and Eric Walker (disregard the rest) are getting to core issues with LENR. It would make a good candidate for your type of analysis. I hope Simon reads this, since he does not like the warfare and insults, it is good hard information with out the spelt.

    1. I’m working on it. That was a split, and the beginnings of it have been covered on However, I plan to create a series of posts and pages out of this. The first post, I hope to have up today, will just be mostly reactive, first impressions. However, my goal is to create one or more introductions to cold fusion, that address all the common questions, and using hypertext, that are thorough. We have some genuine skeptics involved that will be of major importance to this, or at least some genuine skepticism.

      1. Abd,
        Yes..also I really appreciate TTH and Simon coming here. Your challenges do not harm someone that does not take them as threats. Just things to think about.
        You would love my wife, her most famous quote is “I don’t take insults”.
        She means of course, someone can give them till “their litt’le sweet heart breaks” but she does not have to take them. 5 words so much wisdom.

  8. 2 hours later,… still going! (gasp)

    I notice he is coughing quite a bit.
    My guess now is that he has bought some ‘magic cure’ for his cough from an indian chemist somewhere, and all this is some major reaction to the secret ingredient.
    Hopefully, when his cough subsides and he dumps the medicine, he will revert back to the ‘old Bob’.
    Bob,. stop taking the medicine. It’s scrambling your brain.

    1. What you are describing is mania. We have brain chemistry that tells us what is important. In my training, one of the basic distinctions is that our experience is patterns of neurons firing, and patterns of patterns. We have associated responses with patterns. We associate “meaning” with patterns. If we look carefully for some kind of process that “rationally” determines “importance,” it is mostly missing. The amygdala can’t wait. It just reacts. All this is designed for survival, i.e., mostly, it works. However, these reactions are not reality. They merely are a reaction to it, or to our own internal process (a different kind of reality). What Bob is showing is far more common than we might realize, but is generally suppressed, for obvious reasons. When we are certain we understand something, how do we know this? And then, can we communicate this?

      Not directly! Only if someone else has the same “set-up” can we communicate. There are responses to Bob: the first is from those who don’t have the set-up. He’s crazy and what he is saying makes no sense. If we don’t have the set-up. The next response, with the set-up but without what I’ll call resolution, is agreement, yeah, that’s how it is! Obviously, this is ordinarily rare, but we may be seeing some signs of it in the community response to Bob. And then there is what I’ll call a resolved response: STFU, Bob! You are belaboring what anyone can see if they look in the way you are looking, but, because you are a baby, effectively, you don’t actually understand what you are seeing, you are just reacting to it and believing that now you understand. Ancient Knowledge? Yes, there is far more than you have ever dreamed of. To understand it will take you your entire life, if you are lucky. You will get glimpses, flashes, but these are for you, not for everyone.

      When the shackles of the past are removed, what’s left? Systems of training that do this are available. They, best, include safeguards. What state is encouraged in Zen monks? Running around telling everyone what they just found? The common saying: “those who know don’t talk.” Is that because they are stingy, won’t share the wealth? (Or warn everyone of the danger?) This latter is behind “die before you die.” Get that over with, the fear of death. We are all going to die. First of all individually, but also collectively. All life will die. Fearing the inevitable is useless. Yes, you have survival instincts, and you can and will follow them, unless you find something better. Start looking for it, because survival is a game you will lose. What game can you win? That’s a game worth playing.

      Right now, you are playing a game of Bob has Found The Truth and is Not Afraid for People To Think He is Crazy. Great. congratulations on your courage. However, now, drop that ego. Die before you die. God can take care of himself, and so can the human Self. Individually, Bob, what you think is meaningless. There is far more to explore, but the road can get lonely, if you imagine you are the only one on it. This is all known, nothing I am saying here is new. Join the club, but, please, stop the hand-waving. It’s boring.

  9. Dear oh dear! I have just spent an hour watching the live ‘Redpill AMA’ vid on You Tube. After all, I wouldn’t want to miss the first public revelation of the answer to everything.
    After wasting a whole hour watching, what to me was nothing but aimless meanderings down memory lane, I turned it off. There were still 43 people watching, so it wont go totally un-noticed. I would have thought the answer to life, the universe and everything would have drawn a bigger audience than that.

    Sorry Bob. Your intention was probably to reveal something deep and meaningful, but I simply did not get it.
    I hope that doesn’t make me a shallow and evil person.

    Having on a number of occasions to deal with someone who had been in the middle of a manic episode, it was apparent that I was seeing just that.
    When asked to explain something, they seem to pluck random past experiences or events out of the air and then use them as an explanation for their action or present point of view. The explanations are often totally unrelated to the experiences they find themselves in, but they can’t see that, or if they do, will not admit it. In the end, you realize it a pointless exercise to try and find any logic in the situation so you give up and it remains, ‘their little secret’. Later on, when things settle down, they claim it was you who were doing your best to ‘press their buttons’ and rile them up, or they ‘were only joking’.
    I think anyone who says anything to Bob will not change his present opinion. That will only be done by himself after he returns to reality.

    From what I saw in the first hour of Bob’s video, he appeared to be plucking various random and completely normal events out of a lifetime of previously unrelated happenings and fitting them together to construct a new revelation of some deep and meaningful purpose which has suddenly become apparent to him. Everything referred to seemed boringly normal.
    In fact I think he probably could have found more compelling reasons for his conversion, in the tea leaves of his overly sweet indian tea.

    If this lack of revelation changes, and he is saving the best bits until last, after it’s all finished, can someone please post the time slots in the video where I can jump to in order to join the enlightenment.

    Hang in there Bob. We still love you even though you do appear to have fallen off your trolley.

  10. Rigel – the explanation that the virtual particles have quick trips into reality, but only for a time where Heisenberg allows it for that energy, and that if a sufficient amount of “real” energy appears at that place then the particle and its antiparticle can then become a real particle (shades of Pinochio here) is well-established. That doesn’t mean though that it’s what really happens. It would be just as reasonable to say that sometimes energy can condense into a particle/antiparticle pair for some reason – or indeed for no reason except chance. How can we tell the difference between the two stories?

    The stories don’t matter – unless they lead to further work. At the moment the prospects for spacetime emerging from quantum entanglement look good and will if they pan out give us pictures that accord with reality at a deeper level and solve the whole quantum weirdness thing. We will then have very different stories.

    I always think of people’s problem with quantum weirdness as being because we anthropomorphise physics and get unhappy when it departs too much from our conceptual models that are related to sensorimotor experience in a 3D macroscopic world. There is no reason to expect underlying reality to match this and every reason from experiment (the QM stuff) to think it does not. So – exciting times!

    1. Yes. I can understand some of the explanations of quantum mechanics. To understand it deeply would probably take more time than I have available. I have some intuitive sense, but don’t consider that reliable. If a theoretician can make verifiable predictions (not merely “explain” what is already known or has been seen), I’m interested, because I can assess this by the predictions and experimental results. Otherwise I depend entirely on experts, and someone like Axil is unreliable. He says whatever he thinks that day, he has a head full of fine-sounding word salad, and quickly derives explanations using it, of unconfirmed experimental results. I find this almost entirely useless.

      Theoreticians have the right to waste their own time working on the cold fusion problem! My strong sense is that there isn’t yet enough information for this to be ripe. IH has given some money to theoreticians; compared to serious experimental work, it’s probably cheap, and IH does do long shots. Most important, though, is establishing the foundations, what I called Plan B.

    2. Simon and Tom (TTH),
      Since I read you both (I sometimes print both your thoughts out, like I did both the TC paper and Simons paper) I know that you both have open minds. And spend your valuable time helping people understand. Due to you Simon I spend a fair amount of time looking and understanding new energy technology, and you Tom have caused me to spend a whole lot of time learning the math that I never thought I would understand. I have benefited from you both immensely. Damn shame I waited to retire to start learning stuff, damn shame.

      1. Thanks, Rigel. Once you retire you wonder how you managed to fit in everything else with a full-time job as well.

        Getting a cheap, safe and non-polluting way to power our world is about the biggest problem, as I see it. If we get that, it enables all the other problems to be solved or reduced. It would also be good for such a power supply to be portable and available down to a kW or two so that each home could be self-powered, which would remove the risk of country-wide power-outs from grid failures, whether those failures are accidental or from attacks. We’ve lived through the easy times when oil was cheap and some bad times when it was cut off or became very expensive, so removing the possibility of someone else (or our own governments) practising Hydraulic Despotism would be great. This is why I’ve been working on energy supply, and why I was initially interested in Rossi (who faked the data) and then LENR after reading up Jed’s library and finding it was actually real. Though we won’t actually run out of oil in my lifetime, and there’s coal for centuries, a look at China and India says why that is not a good idea.

        Nearly-free power enables farming anywhere, a water supply and heat/cooling anywhere, and also makes recycling most materials cheaper than mining more. We can’t run out of “stuff” unless we send it off-planet, and the main cost of recycling is the energy needed, given that it can be automated.

        Finding better ways is thus important as regards quality of life, prosperity, and being able to power the poor countries into the same state without them destroying their environments in the process. Given the political instabilities I don’t know how long we’ve got to find an answer.

        LENR has a bad press, and so Abd’s Plan B is great since it will legitimise LENR and stop it being a crackpot’s corner complete with tinfoil hats (looks like BG is in that corner at the moment). I expect it will soon also become obvious to nearly all that there’s no point in trying to replicate Rossi since he faked his published data one way or another. He’ll still have his followers, of course, but we should have more people trying different theories with experiments to test them. The more ideas, the more chance that one will work well.

        I haven’t followed Tom, though I enjoy his posts here. The deeper maths isn’t my strong point since I seem to have a problem with symbols unless I really know what they mean. We all have our strong points and weak points. My strong point is probably being a generalist and thus not limited to one speciality, but being able to get deep enough fairly quickly when I need to know about something, so I can see cross-correlations between previously-unrelated snippets of data. It’s intuitive physics rather than mathematical physics, and we need both to advance. In a forum like this (and R-G!) we learn from each other and fill in the missing bits.

  11. Abd,
    I am interested in what core belief that you think Scientology has. Really not to joke or be critical. I would also imagine that you have gone on a spiritual journey to get where you are now.

    1. Lucky guess. As to core belief of Scientology, that is difficult to discern, for an outsider. I wrote:
      “At the core of Scientology is some real technology, it actually works, at least the beginning levels do. But Scientology believes in Good and Evil.”

      That was not a mention of “core beliefs,” but rather of technology. Those who are unfamiliar with how the brain works and how transformation can occur, will be astounded when they experience it. Scientology began with Dianetics, a technology. As far as it goes, it works. You can also get very similar results without paying the high fees for auditing within the Church, primarily by realizing the purpose and then seeking it with diligence.
      The problem is that what Scientology presents to the public as “what Scientologists believe” is very shallow. The advanced work is highly secret and protected. I recommend the video interviews of Leah Remini for a recent take, she speaks from deep experience, very much a believer, very, very involved, who then discovered what was very difficult for her to accept.

      She found that what the Church was teaching and proclaiming and demanding was very different, opposite, to what it was actually doing. Example, I just watched a few minutes of the Creed, and it talked about inalienable rights to express opinions. And then there are many stories of those who did that, but who were attacked by the Church, with illegal methods (and there were convictions). All this is then dismissed by the Church as bigotry.

      It’s easy to research all this, it is all over the internet. I know one major critic who spent time in jail for it. This guy only cared about truth. He picketed them. Hate crime.

      Leah says, “I don’t want you to believe me. When I mention Church doctrines, I want you to read them!” She is standing up for others who are finally telling their stories, knowing that it could result in being shunned by their entire families, kept from their children, etc.

      That basic Scientology techniques work is part of what traps people. If it was all BS — as some pseudoskeptics proclaim — it would not have that power. But the deeper levels, well, when the OT3 papers were handed to Leah, she looked at her mother (OT8) and mouthed “WTF? This is it?”

      However, the Scientology structure is designed to develop more and more power over the practitioner. It is ruthless. Werner Erhard did study Scientology, and in his authorized biography he describes the difference. Scientology operates in what he called, in his own work, the realm of survival. That is the realm of good and evil, right and wrong, and the goal of scientology could be said to be to live forever, free. In pursuit of that goal, all necessary means are justified. And, of course, one must disconnect from “suppressive persons.” Completely. The future of the Earth depends on it! Anything that makes the Church look bad is harming all life, it’s Evil, because the Church is the only hope of humanity.

      Here: does-scientology-recognize-good-and-evi

      That is only the tip of the iceberg. That page calls good and evil a “very clear distinction.” That’s the certainty of a cult. Look closely, it is utilitarianism, and circular, but it does fit how people think, commonly, if they don’t develop depth. Again, I suggest Leah Remini. It’s tempting to write a more thorough piece, but this is not really my topic. She is quite cogent, and is under heavy attack from the Church. But she knows she is lucky, because her family backed here. There is another story you can find of a young journalist, not realizing the danger, who wrote a story on Scientology that was published. They sent an operative to become her boyfriend, and she was heavily harassed, and she became suicidal. Proof that enemies of the Church are crazy, right? Eventually she won a judgment, because the FBI raided the Church and found the files, and the wife of L Ron Hubbard took the hit, protecting him. And was then essentially ejected by the Church.

      These stories are almost unbelievable. Yet … read the Church documents! Leah Remini was allegedly expelled from the Church for unethical behavior. Read about ethics in scientology Read the Hubbard policy paper. Leah reported ethics violations, as required. (i.e., it is considered an ethics violation to not report ethics violations, and she was straight-arrow.) What happened to her? It turns out that all people are created equal, but some are more equal than others. Look up “Kha-khan.”

      Here is a lengthy interview. the-joe-rogan-experience-episode-908-with-leah-remini

      1. I apologize Abd- I am somewhat familiar with Leah Remini’s story. After what you wrote about today in relation to Bob G. and you experiences I was interested in your own spiritual journey. I thought before Islam your journey took you through Scientology, among others. You put yourself quite out there with your story. I can only admire that.

        Your brutal honesty (from your point of view based on your life experiences and training) I find compelling. I can work with honesty, even brutal criticism for simply it builds trust– but as I like I say, “once I see a pattern” of non-truths in any person, I just stop processing what that person says. Understand with regards to you and what you say “in writing” is both challenging and sometimes threatening to folks. (So it is clear, I mean threatening to their point of view). I have found some people have to be right all the time. For me these are the easiest of people to bypass to get my simple goals. But it (bypassing) requires patience, in the end they move out of the way quicker statistically than when I stand there and challenge them. Any way your journey? A good missive I am sure.

        1. No, I have never formally studied Scientology. My father married a woman, though, whose father, a chiropractor, was a Scientologist. First I heard of it, maybe 1961 or so. I have a friend who found great value in it, but left because of issues with the way the Church sells it. Just now I watched an interview with Gary Taubes. The early part talks about how he got started in science writing. Somewhere around 1:37, he mentions a scientist who had panned his work, who then apologized. Taubes explains why this rarely happens. I find Taubes compelling. Yes, he made a mistake …. The conversation that Taubes wants is essential. I hope to get back in contact with Taubes when a certain research group finishes their work. I’d need to give him something very clear; he is now into something completely different, a billion dollar per day issue. And instead of just complaining about Bad Science, he started an Institute to do the necessary research.

  12. I’ve seen many various people talk.

    When there is weird claims I see 4 possibilities, variation of the Poe’s law :
    1- I’m too conservative, closed mind, and he is a visionary
    2- he is crazy
    3- he is trying to fool us
    4- he is trolling the community to make us look ridicule

    I don’t see why someone would like to troll us… We are so insignificant today, nobody care of us. Or they just succeeded.
    We have been fooled (we disagree on how many time and by who).
    F&P showed us mainstream physicist were closed mind.
    Mental disease exists.

    1. Yes, it exists. It is never a substantive argument, but it can be relevant. In particular, if someone shows symptoms of mania, and Greenyer has done this superlatively, then what they say must be seen as influenced by their condition, and judgment, properly, is suspended.

      There is “high-functioning” mania, where the person may seem entirely “sane” and can be quite convincing, and then some detail sets off alarms, if people are listening carefully. Sometimes there is a fact that is not widely known, and someone who comes across this fact can become obsessed by it. Some level of this is relatively normal, certainly it’s common. 3 and 4 exist, and notice that in this case, Greenyer is actually acknowledging a level of 3. That is, he knows that what he is saying will appear crazy, and he says that he made that really crazy, blatantly manic video so that people who can’t handle “the truth” will simply dismiss him. With that, he acknowledged a kind of deception. Did he really do this or did he invent that as a rationalization, and should we care which it is?

      Greenyer is green, raw, untrained and undisciplined. If he really wants to serve the transformation of humanity, he’s going to need to grow up, to mature, to develop discipline and gravitas. It is going to be work, and much of will not be as glamorous as what Greenyer has been up to. Dewey Weaver actually said it.

      The F&P case showed that mainstream physicists put their pants on one leg at a time. It is not as simple as “closed mind” which tends to blame them. There were plenty of mainstream physicists who were willing to consider cold fusion claims. And then, as is sometimes said, “mistakes were made.” I say that all “sides” made mistakes. It was a Perfect Storm. Huizenga was right: The Scientific Fiasco of the Century.

      And, sometimes, we keep making the same mistakes, imagining that “they” should straighten up and fly right, then everything will be fine. That is not how life works.

  13. There’s a great comment from Alain at which puts a nice perspective on things. One particular sentence stood out there: “if french were obeying laws, country will collapse”. French laws are very complex, and if observed to the letter then nothing would get done at all, so the French have an inbuilt tendency to ignore them and get on with things that need doing. As long as no-one complains, it’s good.

    For various reasons, I tend to discount claims of being able to replicate Rossi and that what RossiSays is true. It needs somewhat more proof than people seeing strange lights – let’s see a self-loop to prove that the power is there.

    It seems that Bob Greenyer has seen a test run of something that is very destructive, and is claimed to tap ZPE. Though I remember Feynman’s claim that the ZPE in an empty teacup was enough to boil all the oceans of the Earth, I think that ZPE is not a reality but instead fabricated in the mathematics of the theories and does not reflect real energy that can be made physically available. Future “theories of everything” will maybe remove the need to propose ZPE as we achieve a better description of the underlying reality. At the moment, people trying to explore ZPE are using Casimir gaps and very small constructs, but it should be noted that at these scales we’re not dealing with massive numbers of molecules and energy transactions but we’re getting down to single digits or single atoms, so the normal statistical rules we are used to will no longer apply exactly anyway. We can thus expect some valid claims of having seen something weird happening, but that scaling it up to something useful (powering a car etc.) will not be shown.

    Whereas nuclear processes generally turn a small proportion of the available mass to energy, it’s known that a total mass to energy conversion is possible by using matter and antimatter. Maybe this is what the amazing weapon is? Here on Earth, though, making antimatter requires us to first put that energy in using large particle accelerators. IIRC Holmlid claimed a total mass to energy conversion, but I haven’t been able to find a link to that.

    “And in the night, imagining some fear, how easy does a bush become a bear?”.

      1. Rigel – the explanation that the virtual particles have quick trips into reality, but only for a time where Heisenberg allows it for that energy, and that if a sufficient amount of “real” energy appears at that place then the particle and its antiparticle can then become a real particle (shades of Pinochio here) is well-established. That doesn’t mean though that it’s what really happens. It would be just as reasonable to say that sometimes energy can condense into a particle/antiparticle pair for some reason – or indeed for no reason except chance. How can we tell the difference between the two stories?

        As a physicist, you must be pretty adept at the doublethink of holding mutually-incompatible ideas as being useful for prediction of what will actually happen when you do something. As such, I’ll use the virtual particle sea idea while what it predicts matches what is seen to happen, but I think it’s fairly unlikely to be actually true. Although you can fill an “empty” vacuum with virtual stuff that will give it permittivity and permeability, that would also imply that those constants would have fluctuations as well and that we’d have seen effects of that at the atomic scale. What really happens must be different.

        I think the experiment you were thinking of was where they vibrated a mirror very fast and thus produced some microwave photons from “nothing”. The claim was that the vibrating mirror made that photon from the virtual sea become real. On the other hand, you also get EM waves when you accelerate a charged particle, which they were doing. Sorry I don’t have a link to that experiment, but maybe a couple of years ago – could be a bit more since time passes quickly.

        That may explain why I find it hard to understand people who fiercely defend a scientific theory as if it is absolute truth and cannot be questioned. I’ve seen theory change too often to be too emotionally involved in insisting that it’s right. I regard all theories as just “the best we know so far” and will look at the alternative ones to see if they give better predictions and need fewer fudge-factors. That’s when I understand them, of course. Still, I’d even drop CoE if it was sufficiently proven to have been broken – but in the meantime the Big Bang theory (which breaks it) is suspect.

        1. I can not say I do not have rigid beliefs. I do (Rossi’s full of it).
          It’s that I think if new info becomes available I may not have understood properly. The onus is ALWAYS on me to understand. Then adjust as required.
          Remembering back I think I gave you the squid url years ago, to provide an example in a ZPE discussion. But after our recent discussions and since I see you as a great and patient teacher. I spend more time on why you think what you do, before I move on. I think of you as a polymath. Hence I have a tendency to ask you more questions. The reason is simple, I no longer care to know how something is done, I am interested in why it is done.

  14. I have already said most of what I needed to say over on Peter Gluck’s EgoOut, of March 2nd, so I wont say it all again here.
    I will add though, that I am very disappointed in Bob G.’s revelation on this matter because I had previously taken his voice and opinion on lenr to be well reasoned and reliable. In view of this recent episode, I have abruptly been swayed to the opinion that whatever he now says carries as little weight as the equally earnest proclamations of A.R.
    It just goes to prove to me that you cannot take the word of anyone making spectacular proclamations as representing a true reality unless you can independently verify what they are saying from multiple reliable sources.
    Unfortunately, I now have to remove Bob from that list of reliable sources.

    Sorry Bob. You have now joined the ranks of Sterling Allen, Andrea Rossi and a few others, as people whose opinions require a rigid confirmation before being taken seriously.
    I can only conclude that the attempted production of free energy, although so far, apparently unsuccessful, emits some form of stupifying radiation.
    My advice, wear a tin foil hat.
    I don’t know if it helps but apparently, it seems to be the accepted method of protection.

    PS. I suppose I should add that Lomax’s analysis is far more professional than mine. Well written Lomax.

    1. Even though Lomax himself acknowledges having experienced what he used to call a “schizophrenic break”?

      One might say that the constructed world, that becomes so familiar, can crack open under some conditions, and a vast realm of experience is revealed. I used to say in meetings that it is as if we are driving a car, but our eyes are closed. Somehow, we are avoiding collisions, etc. But then we open our eyes, and are flooded with experience, we see all the dangers and near-collisions. What happens?

      Sanely, we close our eyes! Then we open them very carefully! After all, our life has been running with only a few glitches. If we don’t trust Reality, life becomes quite difficult. In a panic, we might actually crash! I had a friend about thirty years ago, he was a well-known psychotherapist. And, it turned out, he was undiagnosed bipolar. He was brilliant, smart, engaging, but sometimes did “crazy things.” Because he was so high-functioning, he was not diagnosed for many years. Lithium did the trick. I met him a bit over four years back. Seeing him, in one moment, it was as if we had discussed volumes. He was doing very well.

      I see that Greenyer had recently interviewed Egely. Egely has a calm and very convincing manner. Yet Egely’s story has what I’d call some “edges.” These are things that he has seen, witnessed, that are … let’s say they are outside of norms. A mysterious beating when he was working on cold fusion, that the police say never happened. Something happened, but who, what, where, how, and what we always want to know, “Why?” In the training, that “why” is addressed as human invention, it does not exist in reality, or, more accurately, it is best known to reality itself, not to us. The “Why” that we play with, we invent. It is never truth itself, or, more to the point, it can cover and hide truth, which is why “life is empty and meaningless and it is empty and meaningless that life is empty and meaningless” is part of the training. Not that this is, itself, reality, but that taking this stand then opens doors.

      Without a basic trust in Reality, those doors are better left closed, the first task is to create trust, so that when we see more of what is actually happening, we don’t fall into reactivity and fear and other pathologies, including fanatic certainty.

      If Greenyer recovers, he may be a bit restrained for a while, but … he will be deeper and, if he proceeds with care, he will be more effective at what he chooses to do from a much deeper understanding of mission. It will connect him with humanity.

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