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Comments that have been moved here using Tako Movable Comments are not appearing in the open page (but only in the administrative page edit interface). I do not know why, and this has worked before. Pending resolution, here is the discussion copied and pasted from the admin interface:
|Abd ulRahman Lomax||In reply to Jed Rothwell.This interchange will be moved to a subpage, because it has obviously become a debate. The goal here is not debate, but discussion and sharing of information, evidence, and points of view.
First of all, this questioning of existence of concepts is ontologically naive. They exist as concepts. Further, there is apparently real recombination, that is not actually controversial, the issue is level, not existence. There are analyses that establish an upper bound for it, as I recall, based on certain experimental results. Are you denying this, Jed? As to CCS, there is, again, no doubt that in some experiments, shifting the location of heat generation could affect results. Again, the issue is not reality, but level and specific application. Without this recognition, debates become a juvenile “Is So!” “Is Not!” with no resolution. We can do far better than that. We can drive a stake through the heart of zombie arguments, nailing them to the wall for future reference, without insulting anyone. (gad, gruesome metaphor, sorry! shades of a Bones episode on Louisiana Voodoo.)
Some years back, a skeptic and I were discussing SRI experiments on Wikiversity. He came up with a whole series of possible artifacts. Some were totally preposterous (Radium contamination!) But, hey, he was thinking, and I wanted to encourage that. Eventually, with P13/P14 he came to miscalculation of input power due to bubble noise, and he had a Rube Goldberg explanation of why this only appeared in the deuterium cell and not hydrogen (smaller bubbles, less noise!)
Great. I didn’t think so, but … this was taken to Dieter Britz, who actually wrote a study based on experimental data he had. Because this comes up in the current discussion, that’s quite useful. This is a far deeper and more satisfactory response than “You’re Wrong!” We also got comments by experienced electrochemists on the CMNS mailing list. Pons and Fleischmann use the same method of measuring input power, controlled constant current plus averaging of voltage. It’s a powerful and effective method. It is not followed by all researchers.
This is the kind of response I want to see to questions and critiques. It recognizes the question, it does not ridicule it. Then it answers the question, and because of who Dieter Britz is, it more or less nails it.
|Jed Rothwell||In reply to THH.[Admin: this comment was in response to http://lomaxcf.grimshawassociates.com/morrison-fleischmann-debate/original/general/#comment-5277]
“My method here is to raise issues I’m not sure about that are not settled in the paper.”
I suggest you read the paper first, and then raise the issues. Speculating about something you have not read will only confuse the matter, and waste time.
“As you have noted we have a putative mechanism for liquid-phase water loss without salt loss. Whether it could be significant later on – we do not yet know.”
Fleischmann and I do know. You don’t, because you have not read the paper. So, you have no basis for an opinion, and your saying this here contributes nothing to the discussion.
|Jed Rothwell||In reply to Abd ulRahman Lomax.You wrote:
“Shanahan’s CCS and ATER certainly do exist.”
Where is the experimental evidence showing they exist?
|Jed Rothwell||In reply to THH.You wrote:
“Re: X does not exist, because of calibration. We have not yet looked at calibration: so though you may be correct that is for the future.”
What is the point of saying this?
I have looked. Martin Fleischmann looked, and described the reasons why calibrations rule this out. Since you have not looked, you have no basis to contradict Fleischmann or me, or to doubt what we say. I am expressing my opinion. You are saying “you might be wrong.” Yes, anyone might be wrong about anything. Pointing this out contributes nothing to the discussion.
This is like saying, “there may be an undiscovered error in this experiment.” That is true, but it applies to every experiment since Newton. It cannot be tested or falsified, so it is not scientific, and it contributes nothing to the discussion.
|THH||In reply to Jed Rothwell.Re: X does not exist, because of calibration. We have not yet looked at calibration: so though you may be correct that is for the future.
Re: CCS does not exist for your stated reason here, again we have not yet looked at the part of the paper that describes this: so though you may be right it is for the future.
Re these general features: yes overall I agree with them, with the caveats mentioned.
|Abd ulRahman Lomax||In reply to Jed Rothwell.I don’t want these detail subpages to become debates. The goal is to understand the paper, so, in the first phase, we will be summarizing it and explaining what it says — and sometimes, what it does not say. THH has raised an ordinary concern, though he has not been quantitative about it (which could be difficult). I am sure that we will be looking at all possible error sources for the calorimetry, including those addressed by F&P and those not. These matters raised by THH belong on the list.
If a problem is “invented,” and there is literature on it, it’s been considered before and isn’t spurious. Basically, a problem can easily exist as some imagined possibility but, in practice, have negligible effects. When we have a list, we can go down the list and research each item.
You have not signed up for the Review Committee. I’m considering moving comments from non-members to a special place. You are highly knowledgeable; my preference would be that you sign up, by commenting as a member on Review Committee. That will give you a vote in polls and your participation will be very, very welcome, I’m sure. But accusing THH of having a “bad habit” — in these study pages, this is not the blog — is inappropriate, member or not. “Making up problems” is a welcome task here. Attempting to prove this or that, at this point, is not.
Shanahan’s CCS and ATER certainly do exist; the question is the magnitude. My sense of the literature at this point is that it is essentially negligible under most circumstances in skilled calorimetry. We will be looking at calibrations, possible calibration errors, and recombination, these are major issues, not to be waved away by saying they don’t exist.
|Jed Rothwell||In reply to THH.[Admin: This comment was in response to http://lomaxcf.grimshawassociates.com/morrison-fleischmann-debate/original/general/#comment-5267]
“heat loss through the top of the cell (Kel-F plug and associated through connections) will depend on cell conditions and this (as in CCS/ATER or CCS -something else TBC) could make significant changes.”
No, that is incorrect. There are no significant effects from these factors. If there were, they would be seen during calibrations. They are not seen.
The whole point of doing calibrations is to ensure there are no problems of this nature.
You seem to have a bad habit of speculating and inventing problems which the literature shows do not exist.
Shanahan’s CSS does not exist. If it did, the cell constant would change when the location of the heat in the cell is changed, for example when calibrating with a joule heater.