Just like a Rossi demo! (Those were the days! Live TV!)
The occasion for this brilliant wit, a masterpiece, if I say so myself, and I do, is ele’s continued citation of the Cherokee legal stuff, even though it is completely irrelevant to the topic, Cherokee is an LLC that makes risky investments, and a few fail, and the accounting is complex, and with that, an SEC settlement of $100,000 for an accounting error, with no finding of intention to defraud anyone, is SOP, and equivalent to me being fined $0.05. Yet to ele, this is “very interesting.”
I covered this first on Ele mental my dear, posted 5/18/2017 at 5:10 PM. So today I see another post from ele on the same topic. 5/18/2017 12:41 PM.
As before, there is a cover story:
Googling around about Woodford and Cherokee. Seems that SEC has done an action against them:
There is nothing new here. The SEC affair was already shown in ele’s post two days ago. The story has nothing to do with Woodford, and the relevance to Cherokee is only the obvious. Cherokee is big business ($2.2 billion in assets managed), and that business is investing in risky developments, done through compartmentalized LLCs, an LLC per project. According to one story on them, they put about $25 million into a project, and then more money is raised for that project (often much more), from investors interested in it, often local. And these projects sometimes fail, and when they fail, the LLC can go bankrupt. The result of that is that Cherokee loses their investment, or part of it. So the bottom line of these stories are that Cherokee sometimes loses money. And of the SEC story is that accountants sometimes screw up. There is nothing else there.
Planet Rossi, like Rossi himself, at least in his public persona, has only the fuzziest idea of how business operates. ele is here trolling, seeing how far he can go pursuing off-topic interruptions. His point:
So a good question would be where are the 250M$ that IH has rised using Rossi technology ? What use they are doing of all that money ?
Ah, Rossi English again…. what is unmistakeable are the Rossi tropes.
“$250 million” IH is known to have raised the original $20 million from a stock offering in 2013 (much of it personal funding by the founders — but Rossi will have us think that this came from outside), and then, $50 million was, from case documents, committed in 2014, not after the Woodford site visit in February. This money did not go into IH. It appears that IH was planning on moving all equity to IPH, the Dutch company, (and a defendant in Rossi v. Darden), with IH becoming wholly-owned by IPH, but Woodford, in a brilliant move in hindsight, insisted on a new U.K. entity being formed. This then became the sole owner of IH, existing where it would be easily accessible to Woodford if there were problems. They purchased, with the $50 million, preferred stock which conveyed low voting rights, indicating trust in the existing management, which was Mazzarino and Darden. As I recall, with Vaughn, they have majority control, but I haven’t looked in quite some time.
Setting aside the original $20 million (from friends of Darden, none of this was or is sold to the public), $50 million has been raised by the people behind IH, for LENR investment. On that $50 million, IH Fanboy has often repeated the casual comment of Paul Lamacraft on hearing that there were problems with the Rossi investment. He wrote this yesterday:
it remains that Woodford stated in no uncertain terms that Rossi’s technology was core to their investment. And the valuation documents that are now on the docket confirm that (as it is split out based on LENR tech, with Rossi’s accounting for most of it).
That’s a misrepresentation what was said, following the Planet Rossi trope. (This error is actually in the joint pretrial stipulation, apparently Rossi counsel slipped it in). The actual statement was in response to the planned IH press release about March 4, 2016 (shortly before the Penon report)
This is clearly very disappointing given that Rossi’s technology was a core element of the initial investment.
It is hazardous to parse casual emails in an attempt to nail down meanings. However, what is easily noticed in this and other quotations is that how a shift in language is used to reduce the appearance of one meaning and increase the appearance of another.
It was not “their [our] investment.” It was the initial investment. Woodford apparently made only one investment in IHHI. Lamacraft is here reacting with sympathy to an understood disappointment. Not his own disappointment, I suspect, but that of IH. Woodford’s money was not invested in “Rossi technology, ” as such. Little or none of that $50 million went to the development of “Rossi technology.” The “initial investment” was, I think most likely, that of IH itself, which put over $20 million, most of that into the Rossi investment.
“Has rised using Rossi technology.” (What, does it print money?) IH has not actually used Rossi technology to raise money, they have used the very risky possibility of LENR, and “crushing the tests” with Rossi was part of that. That IH was bold enough to take such a risk when it seemed foolish to much of the world would be an element in Woodford’s support, my sense.
On Planet Rossi, IH took Woodford on a visit to show them the Plant steaming away, or at least making some gauges move, or were they moving? what exactly did visitors see? Apparently Rossi (reportedly Woodford thought Rossi a “crazy inventor” and “cagey”) — and then, bowled over by the sheer magnificence of the megawatt plant, with the steam pipe going through a hole in a wall into … into what? Surely to impress visitors, the alleged “heat exchanger” would have shown, with that room being intolerably hot (but if the air was flowing in through the door, it might be tolerable to peek in). But we don’t think anyone was shown that.
… bowled over, they coughed up $50 million. However, that investment was arranged in 2014, it was only that it “closed” in May, 2015, with the money going into IHHI, and from there to be used to support other LENR initiatives, not Rossi. That is obviously what really pisses Rossi off. How dare they?
IHHI still has millions in reserve, or had at last report. So that’s where the $50 million went.
But what about the other $200 million? That is another Rossi trope, he has repeated it many times. I have never seen documentation on it. I suspect he thinks that this was a Chinese investment. My sense is that if the Chinese put in $200 million, it would be in a Chinese company, with an agreement with Industrial Heat for collaboration and cooperation. It would not go directly to IH or IHHI.
The big problem is that the “Rossi technology” never became something that IH could sell without committing fraud or possible fraud. So they didn’t. If Rossi had supported them in making devices that would pass independent testing (not faux “Rossi independence”), they’d already have raised, my sense, billions. This was clearly their plan. Ampenergo, Rossi’s friends, knew that. Rossi does not listen to his friends.
While some aspects of this case may remain forever mysterious, the most likely story is that Rossi’s claims to have a commercial-ready technology , already in 2011, were false or grossly exaggerated. The “1 MW Plant” was supposedly already tested, ready to install — which then explains the otherwise crazy schedule for the original GPT.
Eric Walker asked the obvious question:
Can you provide your source for that $250 million figure?
I think Rossi has said it numerous times, but, of course, ele claims not to read the Rossi blog. And if you believe that….
How do you get from Cherokee misallocating 100K legal expenses (and you know how complex such things can be) to IH having 250M income? You have no evidence of this, nor likelihood…
The entire conversation is off-topic where raised, inserted arbitrarily and without connection — and repeatedly, while moderators twiddle thumbs.
I understand, it’s a problem: how to allow free speech and discussion …. while … while what? What is the goal of LENR Forum? I have never seen it stated. Without clear goals, there is no way to balance the benefits of “free speech” with the clutter that inhibits deeper conversation.
How do you get from Cherokee misallocating 100K legal expenses
A troll will use an error in an inconvenient question to divert attention from the question, to make the questioner look bad or at least sloppy.
Expanses ware much more…..
Expanses are vast, by definition. Ah, expenses. “Much more,” well, that’s a subjective comment. They misallocated about what ele says below, as I recall. The $100K was the penalty assessed for this error. This is far, far less than would have been assessed for anything that looked like fraud.
“The groups have already reimbursed all of the $455,698 in questionable expenses,”
The number of found raised from investors is documented to be (not a RossiSay or TomTold). about 250M$.
I’m sure his English is better than my Italian. “Is documented” is passive, giving no source and no described process, impossible to verify. What we know is that this is a Planet Rossi trope. So Sifferkoll may have added together this or that, and multiplied by the number of pages in the local phone directory, creating a “document,” so it is “documented.” Or what?
Help us out. I’ll do some searching.
THHuxley in April 2016 wrote about rumors, and attributed them to Rossi.
February 9, 2017 at 1:58 AM
Dr Rossi, Now there comes a new claim that Boeing tested the Ecat for/with IH, and it did not work for them, were you present during this demonstration?
I never knew of this demo and I do not know with which apparatus it has been done. I apprehended of it during the litigation. The replications and tests I have been informed of from September 2013 through February 2016 are the ones on the base of which Cherokee Fund Partners-IH have collected 250 millions in UK and China. No further comment.
Notice the tropes. First of all, the Boeing test was not a “demonstration.” It was an independent test, apparently. Rossi always wanted “demonstrations,” where he was in charge, but he also may have allowed tests where his methods were set up and followed, not the independent tests that independent experts would use. Then he refers to Cherokee Fund Partners as the same as IH, that’s a claim of his in the lawsuit, originally sustained on a claim that Cherokee was the sole owner of IH, which was … never the case. Then he claims that money was raised on the “base” of a set of tests through February 2016, and obviously includes the Woodford U.K. investment of $50 million. But that was not “collected” by IH, much less by Cherokee. It went into IHHI, in a place where Woodford could manage it if necessary — and that was at their insistence.
If Rossi isn’t just simply lying, his mind is full of snakes and snails.
Observer • a year ago (May 16, 2016)
Does IH have the $ 89 million to pay Rossi, even if they wanted to? From what I gather, they have raised ~ $60 million from investors for IH and ~ $200 million from the Chinese for R and D in China. The first priority of any money raised would be to pay back Darden’s 11 million, already payed to Rossi. Cherokee would be taking their usual “fees”. Significant effort has been made to expand their IP portfolio by buying alternative LENR IP. They dragged their feet in getting the one year test started, and I do not think they budgeted for its success. The current law suit also puts a damper on their ability to raise more money.
I think “Observer” is Paradigmnoia, usually careful. He was speculating here and wasn’t completely accurate. Back then, it was common to assert the initial investment ($11.5 million) raised in 2013 as the first investment. However, that was a stock offering allowing up to $20 million. Sources say that they spent more than $20 million on the Rossi affair, they may have borrowed some of it. Then there was the Woodford investment, agreed in 2014 and closed in May of 2015. Woodford invested in IHHI (not IH), which, before this, probably at Woodford insistence, bought all the IH stock for stock in IHHI, and some paybacks may have occurred. Some IHHI investors are in line to receive a refund of investment, but Darden is specifically standing apart from that.
[Note added: Paradigmnoia corrected my “I think,” which was an erroneous pattern match. His ECW user name is Obvious. And, yes, it is also obvious. Duh! I did see this as anomalous, and am grateful to P. for correcting it. I wish more users would correct errors, as he did.]
Cherokee was never an investor in IH, and is not an investor in IHHI. I have seen no evidence of major management fees being charged, so the “of course” was speculation, and it wouldn’t be Cherokee. Cherokee did support IH with office space and some employee time, but was reimbursed for that, it is claimed. (When you are the CEO of a $2.2 billion corporation, you might get perks like that! — I.e., convenience. If there is a delay in reimbursement, IRS rules may require interest to be imputed….)
“they dragged their feet” — that’s the Rossi story, probably not true. They were never eager to run that test, I’m sure, it was essentially either dumb, unnecessarily difficult, but IH was apparently read to install and run the plant in Raleigh, but Rossi argued against it. Florida Much Better! Besides, Johnson Matthey! And $1000 per day! For a plant that only cost $200,000! Kiss my ring!
As to a damper on IH ability to raise money, maybe. However, they had arranged funding for a total of $200 million from Woodford. If it had been needed, they’d have been jumping for joy. A real MW test? Worth hundreds of billions of dollars. Again, this idea that they couldn’t pay was a Planet Rossi trope. This probably came from the lawsuit filings, and people had no idea just how deceptive they were. Surely Rossi would not lie in court?
(And I remember comments that apparently believed that pleadings were testimony and therefore must be true or would be a criminal offense. No. However, we now have piles of depositions, where testimony is indeed sworn under penalty of perjury, and documents have been attested as true copies, again under penalty of perjury, etc.)
(As an example, the Second Amendment. The missing signatures were obvious immediately. Yet Rossi asserted that the Second Amendment was in effect, and did not claim estoppel. If fact, this was dubious at best, because Rossi did not bother to assert that there was a written agreement to the start of the GPT, as the Second Amendment required. However, I assumed that this was probably just a technical glitch, that there existed a copy with all signatures. And a date! Rossi was asserting a blatantly invalid document as the foundation of his lawsuit. He knew that the proposed amendment had failed, he called it “cancelled.”)
This piece from JONP takes the cake:
April 11, 2016 at 10:30 PM
Dr Andrea Rossi
Can we have the following information about the ERV that made the report:
2- has he been chosen and agreed upon by both Industrial Heat and Leonardo Corporation ?
3- has IH been able to talk with him for any complint for all the 1 year long test ?
4- has the ERV experience in plants that produce steam ?
5- has the ERV experience of nuclear reactions ?
6- who paid the ERV ?
7- has he experience of validations ?
8- how old is he ?
9- whose were the instruments he used to make the measurements ?
10- who installed the measurement instruments ?
11- did IH participate to the choice where to install the instruments ?
12- did IH maintain his personnel in the plant during all the days of the test ?
13- did IH have the right and the possibility to contact the ERV for delucidations along all the test period ?
14- is it true that IH visited multiple times the plant in operation with their investors ?
15- is it true that they collected 50 million dollars from Woodford funds and initiated a 200 million business in China after theyr delegations visited the plant in operation ?
16- is it true that during the visit IH made also their investors talk with the director of the factory of the Customer during their visits, after which the investors gave them the money to be invested ?
Thank you very much if you can answer: your answer will clear a situation after Mr Darden has diffused information based on which IH was totally unaware of the fact that there was a test on course based on the agreement.
So, an anonymous user, “Soky,” who has never before appeared in connection with Rossi, nor since, somehow knows to enumerate, within a few days of the filing of Rossi v. Darden, the major points of the Rossi claims and arguments (which are now totally familiar from many documents), so concisely and perfectly? Rossi’s answers comes as no surprise:
April 12, 2016 at 10:15 AM
All your questions have been answered already, but “repetita juvant”:
1- doctorate in nuclear engineering, obtained with 110/110 csumma cum laude in the Alma Mater of Bologna (Italy). Note : the University of Bologna is one of the main Italian universities and in particular the Faculty of nuclear engineering is considered very selective
6- 50% IH, 50% Leonardo Corporation
8- I think around 55
9- the ERV used only his instruments, and retrieved them at the end of the test to control their status
10- The ERV, helped by personnel of Industrial Heat
12- always, every single day
This will be worth a separate post. For now, just this:
15- is it true that they collected 50 million dollars from Woodford funds and initiated a 200 million business in China after theyr delegations visited the plant in operation ?
This is what we know: Woodford was planning to invest $50 million before the end of 2014. They did visit the Plant in February, and the investment was closed in May, with the money going into IH Holdings International, Ltd. This wasn’t IH “collecting” anything, rather, IHHI bought IH. It’s true that more money became available for the goals of IH, i.e., supporting LENR.
As to China, there were a number of visitors who were apparently Chinese. It is unknown if they were connected to any Chinese business formed, and as well, what relationship this might have to Industrial Heat. But Chinese money would be very likely to stay in China, not “collected” by IH. It would not be surprising if there were collaborations or even license agreements, but nothing like $200 million would go to IH or IHHI. There is no sign of such investment in IHHI, which has a list of all investors. See the UK Companies House, the annual return 24 May 2016. There is a relatively minor investment titled “IHHI nominee” (something intended to remain confidential?), as about 2 million Series B shares, allocated January 15, 2016, long after any possible Chinese investor visit. However, that’s penny stock, par value $20,000. Maybe Rossi got the decimal point confused and thought it was dollar stock? But it would still only be $2 million. And it is purely speculative that this has anything to do with China.
So what is the source of the $200 million Chinese idea? Looking for sources, all roads point back to RossiSays, in spite of ele’s denials.
An April 20, 2016, Popular Mechanics article takes Rossi’s claims as source, thus representing history through the eyes of Rossi.
This was the earliest source I have found: JONP, April 7, 2016. The whole rant is worth reading. Or maybe not. It is Planet Rossi at the core. Just before it, he explains why he lied about his relationship with IH, how “good” it was as he was preparing to sue them. If he believes what he wrote, he’s an idiot. Anyway, to the point here:
April 7, 2016 at 7:27 PM
I have to comment the press release of IH, being a press release and not a forensic act.
… they made replications with the attendance of Woodford, after which they got 50 or 60 millions of dollars from Woodfords’ investors, they made replications with the attendance of Chinese top level officers, after which they started thanks to the E-Cat they made an R&D activity in China in a 200 millions concern, they made replications with an E-Cat completely made by them under my direction the very day in which the 1 MW plant has been delivered in Raleigh, they made replications that we have recorded. After the replication they made with the attendance of Woodford in 2013 Mr Tom Darden said publicly: ” this replication has been stellar” ( witnesses available). But this is not the place to discuss this.
The details are wonky, the expression is incoherent. We don’t use “replication” that way, it means something quite different from a “demonstration,” which is what Rossi and magicians do. Or someone flogging Timex watches, using an outboard motor.
This version does not claim that they received $200 million, but vaguely asserts some connection with a $200 million concern. Darden has participated in some events and activities in China. It is unknown to what extent this has anything to do with LENR or the Rossi technology.
Yet Rossi clearly thinks, from later comments, that Darden et al received $200 million from the Chinese.