Living in a fog

Planet Rossi is enshrouded in fog. Some of the fog may be deliberately produced, of the nature of FUD; however, much of it is simply wishful thinking that interprets evidence in certain ways, and is not even aware of the interpretation, it imagines it is declaring fact.

The Request for Hearing filed by Rossi on Tuesday is seeking a Protective Order. The Motion is extremely brief. The title:

NOTICE OF HEARING (add-ons – to be heard if time permits) 

And then the text is in a box, unusual as well:

Plaintiffs’ Motion for Protective Order As to the Depositions of J.M. Products, Inc., United States Quantum Leap, LLC, Fulvio Fabiani, and The Boeing Company

There is no clue what this is about. There are, as discussed, two kinds of Protective Order. The one that there is a stipulation about is about protecting disclosed information, already disclosed. This may be different, this may be attempting to prevent information from being disclosed, and, if so, it does make sense that this would not be described in public, more than it has been.

On E-Cat World, Frank Acland posted:

I believe this is the first time I have heard mention of Boeing in connection with Rossi, and Boeing has not been brought up in the court case until now. The only possible connection that I can think of is that Rossi has said in the past that he had been doing some kind of research involving a jet engine, and there was some kind of connection with an aerospace company — but as usual he was pretty vague about it all.

It sounds like whatever the depositions here are, that Rossi’s team is seeking a protective order, which means they don’t want the information in the depositions to be made public. So we might not find out what Boeing’s involvement might be. But it’s interesting to see them mentioned.

This was reasonable speculation.

Ged wrote:

We know Rossi was investigating the use of the QuarkX output for jet engines. Boeing most likely would have just consulted Rossi on what output, tolerance, and other design conditions would be necessary to work with different jet engine designs, and seen the data regarding all that. Maybe they even went as far as doing simulations. This would explain why Boeing is appearing on the Leonardo’s third parties’ side of the table.

What I notice is “Leonardo’s third parties’ side of the table.” There is no indication of Boeing being on “Rossi’s side.” Rossi previously opposed subpoenas for uninvolved parties (ie., his bank, and the telephone service provider).

 barty wrote:

According to Dewey Weaver (investor in IH and good friend of Thomas Darden) Boeing was testing the E-Cat together with IH: (LENR Forum link).

Well done, barty. Straight information, clearly attributed, including the affiliation of Dewey. How this was taken:

Ged wrote:

This is the first we have heard of this… Dewey is also extremely biased (monetarily and personally! Can’t get more biased than that) and has already heavily and intentionally mislead with statements about this case many times before, as we have seen as more data is released (as well as used absurd ignorance/hyperbol like the place melting and the heat being visible from space).

That’s a personal attack without evidence. “…. heavily and intentionally mislead.” I have never seen an example of that. Dewey is not a careful witness, writing like a scientist. He is, as stated, a friend of Darden and an investor — and a consultant for Industrial Heat. This is not any secret, and it’s obvious. Dewey has strong opinions. However, this would be a simple fact, the relationship of IH and Boeing. (The place melting would be hyperbole; it merely would get too hot for human habitation, if a megawatt were being dissipated in that warehouse without heat handling equipment, so … what was “misleading” about a little hyperbole, easily recognized as such or at least marginal? Some stuff might have melted, in fact, with a megawatt. Don’t carry a chocolate bar into the place! I don’t recall seeing that statement, but Dewey wrote quite a lot on Mats’ blog and elsewhere. “Visible from space” is quite possible, for a megawatt dissipated in a warehouse. Depends on what one was looking with, of course, but that much heat should be visible in the IR from a satellite, and, in fact, it is quite possible that IH purchased such images instead of hiring a helicopter, which is what I’d thought they might have done. If Dewey said “visible from space,” I’d certainly consider it possible! It makes sense, but not to someone who will knee-jerk reject anything from such a biased source.

In short, I don’t believe him or anyone till we get more actual information.

There is no basis for considering it a lie. It’s testimony, “information.” Sure, one may want to see corroboration, but if we consider the side Ged is arguing on, the constant flow of disinformation from Rossi, with a series of clear lies, exposed by uncontroverted evidence, and this comment about Dewey stands out in its full ridiculousness. Sure. Wait and see … but meanwhile, what is stronger, baseless speculations or actual testimony from someone likely to know?

Could be Boeing just made or leased some important piece of equipment and that is the extent of their involvement, or gave some consulting not directly related to the E-cat (like consulting on how to build a jet engine), and much less than actually testing one. Considering they are showing up on Rossi’s side and not being brought out by IH, that also is suggestive (could be they are the ones behind JMP in that case, that is how baseless we can speculate with such meager info on this surprise appearance).

One could speculate endlessly, it is always possible. However, none of these are at all reasonable in the sense of being substantially likely. Further, Rossi has actually commented on this, and this more or less nails it.

It’s hilarious: his attorneys have told him over and over, he claims, not to comment on the case, but …. he does.

    • Darius

      Dr Rossi, Now there comes a new claim that Boeing tested the Ecat for/with IH, and it did not work for them, were you present during this demonstration?

    • Andrea Rossi

      I never knew of this demo and I do not know with which apparatus it has been done. I apprehended of it during the litigation. The replications and tests I have been informed of from September 2013 through February 2016 are the ones on the base of which Cherokee Fund Partners-IH have collected 250 millions in UK and China. No further comment.
      Warm Regards,

Now, Rossi lies, so we cannot assume this is true. However, take it straight: Rossi did not know of the relationship with Boeing “until the litigation.” This matches Dewey’s story, this was between IH and Boeing. Then, of course, Rossi introduces his meme about $250 million from UK and China, which has, so far, no support. He continues the drumbeat about Cherokee being involved, when it has been Industrial Heat from the beginning. Yes, Darden got entree by being Cherokee principals, but Cherokee would have no business investing in Rossi. This was something Darden and Vaughn wanted to do, personally — and obviously.

Now, this is fascinating: If Rossi doesn’t know anything about the testing (probably not “demo”)  — and I would expect IH to have arranged fully independent testing, with Rossi not present, very much with Rossi not present! — then why a Protective Order motion?

This was last-minute, tacked into today’s hearing. If there is a difficult issue, I’d expect a temporary Order while they argue it.

One thing is clear from the Rossi comment, assuming he is not lying. This was not about Rossi and Boeing collaborating in some way. All that speculation was just typical Planet Rossi, as Dewey pointed out on LENR Forum:

Dewey wrote:

Bob – they’ll continue to create alternate realities as long as they possibly can. Fake news is real news on Planet Rossi.

Update, February 10, 2017:

“Darius” asked again.

February 9, 2017 at 1:34 PM
Dr Rossi, According to the source on LENRForum, IH did in fact present a ecat to Boeing and that it did not work. That would seem highly unusal that the priciple engineer was not part of such an important presentation?

Andrea Rossi
February 9, 2017 at 6:45 PM
No comment.

Rossi deletes spam and other garbage. It’s clear that, at the very least, he approves what he wants to be seen. Most observers seem to have concluded that many posts on JONP are sock puppets, i.e., Rossi himself.

Here, he makes an argument that would be typical for Rossi. How could one expect the ecat to work without Rossi being present? An easy answer: of course not, since it never has worked without Rossi Grease.

If Dewey is correct, IH asked Rossi to assist with their work to verify the technology, and Rossi refused, being too busy with the “test under way.” What Dewey has claimed now is that they asked or allowed Boeing to do their own verification. This would not be a “presentation.” Presentations are what Rossi has done for years. He’s put on a show, a “demonstration.” But what everyone sane wanted, and a real commercial effort would absolutely need, would be devices that can be made and work according to clear instructions (such as a Patent!), not with Rossi Grease.

This is so obvious that it’s a complete wonder that Rossi supporters manage to show their faces from time to time. MrSelfSustain just changed his user name on LENR Forum to THEDEBATEISUSELESS, and then dropped a LANCB message.

Author: Abd ulRahman Lomax


17 thoughts on “Living in a fog”

  1. Abd – enjoying your writing and analytics – keep up the excellent work!
    I see that you’re drawing in some Planet Rossi / SP activity – congrats and condolences on that.
    The inability of the remnant to understand that Rossi will soon be a footnote in CF history continues to intrigue. Of course the SPs perpetuate and guarantee that the slog will continue into the foreseeable future. Facts are painful things for those folks.

    Thank you for your sharing your ongoing insight – you’re leading the pack on interpretation and analysis.
    Back to the front,
    – Dewey

  2. Fairly obviously, Rossi was not involved with Boeing. AFAIK, though, Boeing don’t make engines, and they fit the customer-specified engines (Rolls-Royce or Pratt and Whitney) on their planes. Boeing have however been associated with trials of antigravity ideas (Podkletnov) and with alternate methods of propulsion such as nuclear-powered aircraft in association with NASA. It’s thus apparent that Boeing has some people who will think outside the box and are prepared to consider some wacky ideas in case they actually work. Considering the temperatures Rossi claimed to achieve, using the systems to run a jet-type drive would not be workable because of the heat-transfer limits, but an electrical generator driving electric motors would be reasonable if the generator was light enough and compact enough to fit into the airframe.

    I have a contact in NASA, and although they are not being public on chasing fringe ideas they do still run tests of things that might just work. They have tried LENR experiments too. This makes sense when you consider that weight and size tend to be critical on space missions. Low-probability ideas are worth testing since the payback is large. As such, the Boeing connection may be a cover for NASA, and they would have good reason for wanting to keep that out of the public eye. Where Boeing might struggle to find a good place to fit LENR into their products, NASA would find a lot of places to use it.

    1. An interest in wacky possibilities is characteristic of those who want to cover all the bases. They will, if sane, not convert “interest” into “belief” unless the evidence they see becomes quite strong. If the Rossi technology were real, converting this to electrical power generation should have been relatively easy. I and others have described how to do this, assuming honest claims. Rossi did something else, took actions that would postpone and prevent independent examination.

      I doubt that there was any connection between Boeing and NASA. NASA has pursued LENR, but mostly being on a wild-goose chase. Having read everything I could find from that NAS scientist, I don’t see that he had any clear comprehension of the history of the field, nor of the state of theory. He was like any ordinary noob to the field, except he was a NASA scientist who was given some support. Did he engage the experts? Not as far as I was able to tell. Cold fusion is an extremely difficult field, bristling with opportunities to waste enormous amounts of time without finding anything useful. There is obvious work to be done, but it isn’t sexy, so few do it. Gradually, the field is developing some legs, learning to walk. I expect some major shifts this year, and all I need for that is for initiatives under way to proceed to natural results, confirming what is already known. Basic science, plodding and careful, and nailing it.

      “places to use it” is way premature. Yes, learning how to control the reaction, how to create reliable effects — which means easy replication, among other things — will obviously lead to possible applications, many. Right now, however, the technology for that simply does not exist. I called Rossi hitting the market with a commercial product “Plan A,” prominent because it was easy! Just wait! But then I noted that delay in implementing LENR for practical energy generation was perhaps a trillion dollar lost opportunity cost per year. Way too much to allow naive reliance on a single person. People can fail for many reasons. Hence Plan B: facilitate basic research, what both U.S. DoE reviews called for. Do it!

  3. Hi Abd

    You said on your blog Dewey was a friend of T.D. and investor in I.H.
    Can you tell me why you think
    he invested in I.H. Was it greed?
    He could have looked into A.R.
    past like he does now and said
    this guys not for me.
    I also think with a friend and
    investor telling T.D. not to trust Rossi for years did damage to the partnership.


    1. “You said on your blog Dewey was a friend of T.D. and investor in I.H. Can you tell me why you think he invested in I.H. Was it greed?”

      This is well known and not controversial.

      “He could have looked into A.R. past like he does now and said this guys not for me.”

      I assume that he, like IH, was aware of Rossi’s past. Sure, he could have said that. Now, consider what would have happened if IH and Dewey (who is a relatively minor investor, apparently, compared to Darden and Vaughn) had decided to stay away from this disreputable character, given what was happening in the world entirely without their involvement.

      They lost, so far, about $20 million, I estimate, but they gained, in cash to be used for their purposes, it appears, $50 million from Woodford, as a result of their bold and “obviously stupid” move. They gained a commitment, it appears, of another $150 million when needed (which is not yet, they still have, at last sight, most of the $50 million left, as I recall.

      Their strategy, as I have inferred it, involved giving Rossi everything he asked for, “within reason,” and they were willing to go much further than most anyone would to avoid spooking Rossi, knowing that if he was spooked, he would immediately withdraw, he had done this many times with interested sources of funding if they did anything to attempt to independent verify any of Rossi’s claims. I suggest reading An Impossible Invention, by Mats Lewan, then put this together with clear fact from available evidence. Be careful about yellow journalists like Krivit. He is an “investigative reporter” who does dig up and report fact, but mixes it with shit, he loves scandal, and creates it sometimes, fanning the flames. This is more visible if one has inside information (such as exists on the private CMNS mailing list, so, unfortunately, I cannot cite what I know).

      (I also have started, in the last couple of years, to be entrusted with private information from figures in the field. So I am informed by what they say, I keep it clear in my mind that this information is provisional, but … I cannot source it or attribute it. What I have been told, however, has often proven to have been correct by later events. The best inside information is information that I can, once I know what to look for, verify independently, because I can then publish it, and I’ve done this on occasion.)

      “I also think with a friend and investor telling T.D. not to trust Rossi for years did damage to the partnership.” This assumes that Darden would simply follow his friend. Not Trusting Rossi was the ordinary and common position of most CMNS scientists from when Rossi exploded in visibility in 2011. “Not trusting” does not mean “believing he was a fraud,” it means waiting, looking for independent verification. Standard science for any extraordinary claim, and what Rossi was claiming was extraordinary, far outside the envelope of what had previously been shown and confirmed. Dewey claims that IH became, for a time, quite hopeful that Rossi had a real technology. He has not stated when that shifted to “probably fraud,” but that shift would have occurred, probably by 2014. However, they did not want to rely on “probable,” for something possibly worth a trillion dollars. So they continued the charade, the plan was to allow Rossi to do whatever he chose to do, and watch.

      When Rossi excluded Murray, the jig was up, there was no way they would pay. We do not know when it became clear to them that Rossi was going to claim a “GPT” and demand payment. Rossi has failed to produce evidence of this happening early on. He filed a Motion for Rule 11 Sanctions, and attempted to prove negligence on the part of the IH attorneys because of the claims they had made. Doing that, one would need to assert the strongest evidence existing, and this was a long shot even if the evidence had been much stronger. Basically, my advice to anyone concerned is to become familiar with the evidence. There are study tools here, and I am creating more. If one really wants to learn, start helping to create those study tools! Most people writing about this have fixed opinions and select the information they attend to, to confirm their opinions.

      That’s a known informational dysfunction. It applies to all sides of issues. The antidote is to back of from any idea that one has a comprehensive understanding, to accept that much is unknown, and then to become familiar with what is known, being very careful to distinguish fact from interpretation and inference. True factual error is rare, compared to misleading interpretation. (But people often call their interpretations “fact.”)

      Dewey Weaver is fairly easy to understand. He has clear motivations, and acknowledges them. I’ll be frank: the idea that Dewey Weaver caused the rift between Darden and Rossi is preposterous. The search for some villain is all-too-common. Bad Idea. Rossi has a long history and, as Dewey has been pointing out, he has been repeating it, close enough.

      1. Maybe A.R. was just stressed
        out from working 16 hr days
        7 days a week that caused him to react the way he did
        in the Murray incident.
        I.H. should have had someone easy to get a long with and knowledge of
        the Doral test on site for a
        few hours a week and report
        back to them.

        1. We do not know exactly what Rossi was doing there. Sam, you are relying on his accounts as being fair and balanced, and that is simply not what Rossi does. The Murray incident was a continuation of a long-time pattern, and overwork might have been a reality for him for years. Key, though, would be a lack of independent advice that he trusted. The Agreement was a business arrangement, and if one takes action that torpedoes a business arrangement, no “excuse” is going to change that. The damage is done. It could be recoverable, but to recover, Rossi would have to realize what he did. As far as I can tell, he still does not realize it and still believes that Murray was a “spy.” Consider the implications. For whom was Murray a “spy”? For Industrial Heat, of course. If Rossi thought that Murray was a spy for someone else, his natural duty would be to explain that to IH, to show the evidence, but not trusting Murray was not trusting IH. He was hiding something from them. It was either the “secret,” or it was that the whole thing was a fraud. IH had two people on site, Rossi calls them the “IH men.” That was Barry West and Fabiani. It appears that Fabiani was not reliable, let’s put it that way. Barry West was not an expert, not an engineer, but a technician, as far as I know. To understand what was happening with the Plant would take someone with engineering knowledge and the skills to notice the unexpected. That was Murray. I don’t know that Rossi met Murray until the shutdown in February, 2016.

          “Easy to get along with” was a description of all the scientists that Rossi strung along. I don’t see that Murray was not easy to get along with, I see no sign of abrasive interaction, but … he was going to ask questions and Rossi always bailed when someone did that. This was Rossi coming face-to-face with his habits and how they conflicted with what Industrial Heat needed to give Rossi what he wanted. Rossi’s habits won, and the result is that he may lose everything. So far, no sign of a criminal prosecution, but it could happen. His winning his lawsuit is extraordinarily unlikely, I don’t see how he can do it. IH winning a judgment is a bit more difficult, but very possible. The evidence of fraudulent representation is very strong, and they have Johnson on the hook, and Johnson very likely has assets. Fabiani is a small fish by comparison, and Bass is trivial. Penon is hiding and if he comes out of hiding, he will probably be served with notice of a lawsuit, which would be a separate action. It might be filed in Italy.

          It is unclear to me how much all the other players knew. Johnson may have believed that the technology was real, and he was just helping Rossi out. But he was deceptive, it’s obvious, so there may be consequences for that. All Bass has to do, my opinion as to what is likely, is simply tell the truth. He was probably misled, himself.

      2. Hi Abd
        You said.
        “So they continued the charade,the plan was to let Rossi do what ever he wanted and watch.
        That sounds like an FBI
        investigation and not a business partner.
        They badly needed someone
        both A.R. and T.D. trusted
        to be the boss over the research project.


        1. Hi Abd
          I.H. Might have been patient with Rossi and
          A.R. might have been patient with I.H.
          But neither had a clue other than legal agreements on how to
          work together on research
          and getting product to

        2. Rossi was extremely difficult to work with. What they did was give him every opportunity. Like an FBI investigation? Maybe. What was the alternative? “Find someone?” Sure. Any ideas? Specifically, someone other than Rossi to “be the boss”? Has Rossi ever worked for anyone like that, in his whole life? (Since maybe his father?) It is possible that if Rossi had not sued IH, they could have asked him to name some possibilities for a project manager. However, why should IH do this? For what project? It is appearing that Rossi might not have any developed technology. IH is going ahead and working with scientists.

          1. Hi Abd
            You said ” it is appearing
            that Rossi might not have
            any developed technology”
            But if the Quark X does
            become a working
            technology where will
            that put I.H.?
            Would it be smart for I.H.
            to ask for a demonstration and test of the Quark X with an
            offer of the $89 million
            if test is positive.


          2. Hi Abd
            You said “find someone
            any ideas”.
            Iggy is one person who
            might be able to work with A.R. and I.H.
            He is from Florida and always believed in A.R. and tried to get Florida government to
            have A.R. do his work there.
            He seems intelligent and
            and interesting fellow.
            He commented right from the start of legal
            Part that A.R. should
            renegotiate with I.H.
            He is almost 80 so would
            probably not be interested.

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