LENR+ is never having to apologize

Once upon a time, IH Fanboy, while clearly a Rossi supporter, was more or less coherent, at least sometimes, as I recall. That’s gone out the window. Gross errors are made but never admitted or directly confronted. If Jed, say, points out a fact that doesn’t fit the IHFB story, IHFB then changes the subject to something else where maybe, he thinks, he might “win.”

At this point he is more or less reduced to “You don’t know everything” and “You have no proof that,” when, in fact, anyone sane recognizes that little is proven, but much is plausible and even probable. At this point, to be careful, the only evidence that exists in Rossi v. Darden is depositions, most of which we have not seen, basically what is provided under oath. The pleadings are not evidence, rather they supply, sometimes, documents which may later become evidence, being attested under oath — and then the witness may be cross-examined.

Nevertheless, we have seen plenty of evidence that, if introduced — as we would expect if this case goes to trial — would strongly indicate various conclusions. IHFB is arguing against many who are pointing out the problems with what he’s claiming, but he doesn’t back up and become careful. I would not expect him to lie down and play dead, but rather to become more interested in balance.

Here is an example of what I’m writing about:

IH Fanboy wrote:

oldguy wrote:

What, That is what Murray said not what Penon wrote after in the report. I thought you didn’t believe Murray’s views.

Aw, oldguy was poking IHFB, playing Gotcha! Cotcha! Contradiction! What to do when someone pulls that? Smart would have been: “Murray was right here.” And then if he still wants to pay IRYW (I’m right and you’re wrong), he could add. “Got a problem with that? Even a stopped clock is right twice a day.” At least be funny! Or one’s on-line life is doomed. But, no, IHFB doesn’t get that he’s out on a limb, up the creek without a paddle. He insists on something totally preposterous to anyone who has been following the case and the discussions.

There is nothing about absolute vacuum–anywhere.

Of course there is. Jed first brought it up when he was saying what was in the preliminary ERV report he had seen. “0.0 bar.” Surely IHFB knows that this is an “absolute vacuum” — at least to the nearest tenth of a bar. Bar means absolute pressure. Period.

Then when we saw what appears to be the actual Penon data, sure enough, every day, the “steam pressure” was “0.0 bar.” This was an obvious error, so obvious that Murray simply ignored what it actually said and imagined what it might have meant: 0.0 barG. Gauge pressure. 0.0 barG is the actual atomspherice pressure, because barG is generally with respect to the atmosphere, barG is a difference in pressure.

By saying that “there is nothing about an absolute vacuum — anywhere,” IHFB is stating with great emphasis what is plainly and provably wrong. This has, for years, been my habit: talking about the discussion itself, where there is a record. That may be why I dislike it when moderators delete stuff, because it was there, it was part of the discussion, people saw it and might be reacting to it, but it becomes impossible to disentangle the mess if part of it has been “cleaned up.”

So then IHFB compounds it with a double ad hominem:

You likely picked up on that canard from Jed.

It doesn’t matter who it came from. Jed claimed to base his comments on a preliminary report he’d seen. While we are free to doubt him, the fact is that he now claims that everything that he had seen was in Exhibit 5. That isn’t strictly true, Jed saw the report and lists of numbers, Jed means something slightly different. He means the substance is reflected there. But in this case, we don’t need to depend on Exhibit 5, we can see, more or less, what Jed and Murray saw, almost certainly: 0.0 bar. For the purposes of this discussion, an absolute vacuum. And, yes, it’s preposterous and yes, Penon didn’t mean that. It was a mistake, which is very simple.

I think the author of Exhibit 5 was told certain things (e.g., the atmospheric temperature bit), and expressly claimed other things (e.g., the piping is DN40).

I notice this all the time. Writers make gross errors and don’t fix them. None of this is about “atmospheric temperature.” Murray wrote about “atmospheric pressure.” Some blogs don’t allow corrections, but LENR Forum does. For reference, here, Exhibit 5. Murray states:

The steam pressure was reported (for the entire period) to be 0 kPaG and the piping is DN40.

This has been poorly read in some of the discussions. A fuller context for that statement, Murray addresses Penon in Exhibit 5, which is a memorialization of his questions.

You stated that the pressure of the steam that was available to J.M. Products (JMP) was nominally atmospheric pressure (0 kilo Pascals gauge (kPaG) or 14.7 psia). […] According to the data you have reported, the conserved mass flow rate of the system from February to November 2015 was […] and the temperature of the water and steam were […]. The steam pressure was reported (for the entire period) to be 0 kPaG and the piping is DN40.

I have previously pointed out that the last sentence has two separable clauses. Is Murray himself stating that “DN40” was reported? From the last sentence, no. It would not be written that way. However, Murray is listing data from what Penon “stated” and what he had “reported.” The verbal statement, apparently, was “nominally atmospheric pressure.” This indicates what Penon meant, in his written reports (the preliminary seen by Jed and the “Final Report,” by 0.0 bar. It was simply an error, it should have been 0.0 barG. As to the piping, the language here indicates that Murray is rehearsing facts for Penon, not an “allegation.” He is not “claiming” that the piping was DN40, he seems to think that this was known and accepted.

Was he in error? Of course that’s possible! I revise my earlier opinion, though, I see no evidence that “DN40” was necessarily Murray’s personal observation, only that he doesn’t seem to think that there is a contradiction. The pipe size is not crucial to Murray’s question, though it would enter into a detailed analysis.

If I had to make a decision based on this evidence, though, it would be that Murray believed the pipe was DN40 and expected that Penon would not argue with this, and I’d assume DN40, then, unless there were stronger evidence for a different size. If the pipes were insulated, it could be difficult to estimate the size from a photo. To be clear, this is about the return pipe, that would carry water, not about the steam pipe itself, pre-condenser.

 It is not a matter of whether I believe the author of Exhibit 5–whatever was written in that exhibit was written. The DN40 piping is probably outright false.

I wouldn’t be so sure. IHFB is correct about “belief,” though. At this point, Exhibit 5 is a report of personal information and belief, and, if supported under oath — which is expected — it will be accepted by the court unless and until it is controverted. To the extent that the court accepts Murray as an expert, his conclusions, such as his conclusions about flow, may be admitted, but that is not necessarily his role in the court process. What is probably most important about Exhibit 5 is that the questions were asked and were not answered, indicating default of professional responsibility by Penon. If it is necessary to establish his conclusions, I would expect to see independent expert testimony.

IH Fanboy wrote:

I have good reasons to believe that the DN40 piping claim is false. If you remember, I used a picture of the old plant and using known dimensions of shipping containers, was able to show that the exit pipe of that plant was very likely DN80, based on a proportional analysis. The chances of Rossi changing from DN80 to DN40 is next to nil.

There is a major contradiction running through all this. IHFB is pointing out certain things we don’t know, and more or less demanding that in the absence of definitive knowledge, conclusions must be avoided. Yet he has a “belief” about one of these things. He is effectively, here, asking what has become a number of participants who are highly skeptical of his claims to accept his prior investigation, but he does not link to it or show it. I certainly don’t remember. Many of those discussions became so convoluted that I stopped reading them. He is claiming we don’t know enough, but asserting “I believe.” Doomed, wouldn’t you think?

Was the old pipe insulated? The construction of the customer return was new. DN80 pipe is more expensive than DN40, and perhaps this was a longer run. Bottom line, this is flimsy. But, of course, the devil is in the details. Instead of running on “belief,” how about actually taking the time to find the old discussion and link to it? How about focusing on fact instead of belief. Presumably that old estimate was fact-based. So what facts, how were they analyzed?

On the other hand, the entire purpose of this is doomed. What has been shown is that there are enough problems with the ERV report that it can’t be trusted. Unless Rossi comes up with a Wabbit — he is desperately searching for one, this is obvious in his discovery revelations — the Doral plant wasn’t a GPT, and at that point the actual function of the Plant becomes almost irrelevant. IH will then be, presumably, attempting to prove fraudulent representation, which is more difficult.

(What looms large, if no GPT, is the problem that, even if Rossi’s devices work with him present, IH claims they could not verify this in independent testing. That’s devastating to “Rossi technology.” Nobody will invest in his technology, in the future, without full and genuinely independent testing, or, at least, if they do, they would have been fully warned. They will be aware that if there is a disagreement, Rossi is likely to sue them. He’s really screwed himself over by filing the action, given what we know.) IHFB continued:

As for the pressure measurements, there are some mixed signals. The test plan had specified an absolute gauge. The ERV data doesn’t specify what is meant by 0 bar. The Exhibit 5 says it was atmospheric pressure. So, take your pick.

Yes, the test plan specified an absolute gauge. 0.0 bar has a very clear and precise meaning, but it would be crazy in context. Exhibit 5 is entirely derived from Penon information on this point. There is a contradiction, one might think, in Exhibit 5, between what Murray wrote and what is actually in the Final Report. There are a number of possibilities. IH has alleged that there was data in the preliminary reports that was missing in the Final Report. Murray was not looking at the final report, but only at preliminary copies. So maybe something changed. However, the simplest explanation is not accusatory. Penon simply used “bar” incorrectly, in the tables. And then Murray, knowing what was intended — and confirmed by what Penon “stated” about atomospheric pressure — simply referred to it as barG. And then we have the problem with 0.0 barG.

What pressure gauge was actually used? Obviously, at this point, we don’t know. Penon removed those instruments. He might have used an absolute gauge and then translated the data to barG, but that seems strange. Much more likely, he used a different pressure gauge.

None of these approaches lead to confidence in Penon’s work. It appears that he was to have been deposed last week in the Dominican Republic. We are unlikely to see that unless there is some dispute over it, until one of two events take place: a Motion for Summary Judgment, which might possibly rehearse some uncontroverted fact, or this goes to trial.

IH Fanboy wrote:

Paradigmnoia wrote:

@IH Fanboy ,
And we don’t really know pipe sizes, temperatures measured, electrical energy in, or amount of water heated.
So bin the whole works.

Agreed! That is part of this exercise, to show those who have formed such sure conclusions to question themselves. Nothing is certain at this point. Jumping to conclusions can be very damaging to LENR and the public’s perception of it, and especially LENR+.

IH FB is confusing LENR and “Rossi”. Rossi is Plan A. Plan A does not depend on public support, at all. The only kind of “Plan A” that needs it is faux Plan A, fantasy Plan A. Plan A will happen regardless of what the public thinks. It only takes one person, or, more realistically, a small group. To the extent that Plan A is possible, it cannot be stopped. The Planet Rossi meme of “the market is the judge” is correct, for Plan A. All the cheers and boos and hisses and “sustain” on blogs are irrelevant to Plan A.

So for Plan A, “Rossi Savior” and “Rossi Evil” are irrelevant. The outcome of the trial may affect Rossi’s ability to continue development, but that is the trial outcome, not the Judgment of the Blogs.

For Plan B, however, public support is very important. Because there are private investors and donors, who will disregard the fluff, Plan B may continue even in the face of the maintained rejection cascade, but public funding (which could be greater than private) will be elusive and difficult. For that purpose, the best condition is that the extreme claims of Rossi be discredited, rejected, and that Rossi be considered the way he apparently wanted to be considered, as a fraud, while, at the same time, IH be supported for having had the courage to confirm or disconfirm Rossi’s claims, in spite of obvious appearances. Rossi’s claims were not about LENR itself. Rossi has attached to various theories when it served him, but the entire NiH approach is not the place to start, educating the public about LENR. We do not have a clear theory as to fuel and ash for NiH, no heat/ash ratio, none of that. To the extent that Rossi has been mentioned, the issue has been confused, and it can backfire.

If Rossi is sufficiently damaged by the lawsuit, he might not be able to continue. If the Rossi Effect is real, that would be a shame, but we would also have to notice that he brought this on himself. Perhaps Rossi’s strength was also his weakness, his bull-headedness.

If Rossi sees that he cannot continue, and if he actually cares about children (with cancer or otherwise), he would then disclose all his secrets. Ideally, he’d publish them. Notice that to maintain a patent, he’d have to do this anyway. To hit the market, he’d have to put technology out there where it could be independently examined. Rossi will have to trust someone, or he and his work is toast. Dried-out, cold toast.

Jed Rothwell wrote:

IH Fanboy wrote:

That quote is about as obtuse as it gets, and you provided no attribution or source, nor who inserted the sics.

That quote was uploaded by Rossi in the lawsuit filing. Abd inserted the sics, as I explained previously.
If you do not believe Rossi, who do you believe?

This is what happens, how someone who is expressing sincere belief can be led far astray. There is a conversation. The normal human mind does not remember the sensory, nor, typically, exact wording. It remembers “meaning,” which is invented, in a process that usually creates ideas that will then predict the future. When there is emotional reactivity, it is the emotion that is most strongly remembered and associated. What IHFB remembers is not what was actually stated, but how he thought about it, later, his reaction. His reaction was “it’s wrong,” so then he proceeded to invent reasons for it to be wrong. Since he didn’t notice the attribution, he objected to the lack of it. He did not go back and reread what he’d read. Why should he? He had already read it once!

When what was said becomes controversial, I always attempt to find it and check my memory. Usually, my memory is sound, but not always. If I erred, my stand is to immediately correct it, when possible, hang how it looks, I’ll worry about reputation later.

Now, everyone here should just believe me, right? That would create a Planet Lomax. While trusting my intentions is reasonable — I’d say! — my suggestion is to verify as much as possible. I make mistakes. At this point I remember Jed’s posting and, yes, he did attribute. But what is the reality? It’s crazy to argue about something that can be verified in less time than it takes for normal argument.

Here is what I find. In objecting to the sics and lack of attribution, IHFB was not referring to Jed’s post, but to one by THH. THH did not clearly attribute. Sloppy, to be sure, but that’s common on public fora.

Here is where Jed posted the Penon description, Tuesday, February 21.  Perhaps IHFB missed it. Jed credited me for my “[sic]” insertions. One of them was probably incorrect, as another pointed out. The original was here. The Penon description is attributed on that page, linked to a local copy. The description was dated 9 February, 2015. The alleged first day of the “test” was 24 February, 2015, see the “Final Report Annexe.”

(I may have somewhere stated that the test began on 31 January, 2015, because of the weird way that the data is paged. That is, I did make that mistake, but may have caught it and corrected it before publishing.)

IHFB went on and on, apparently not recognizing the taste of his foot in his mouth. I’m going to stop with this one, because I’m mentioned in it. Most of what I point out here is also noticed by others….

IH Fanboy wrote:

JedRothwell wrote:

The data uploaded by Rossi means nothing to you?

The ERV data deposited in the court docket does mean something. Aside from the weirdness the latter half of November, the data has a certain interesting realness to it, as if there were a real, varying load, and with spikes in input power generally corresponding to FLP data. It doesn’t immediately come across, to me, as fake data.

To someone with high experience reviewing calorimetric data (Jed Rothwell), it does. So start with that, with respect for his experience. That doesn’t mean that he is right, but if you believe he is lying, forgeddaboudit, this all becomes posturing to impress others.

All this counterargument means is “I don’t see it.” The depth of the error is more than might be apparent. There are multiple factors interacting here, and, while it can be useful to focus on one only, reality is generally more discernable by first becoming clear on each factor, as to the range of possibilities, then looking at all of them. With each factor, some alternate explanation might be possible. However, how likely is this? That something is possible does not make it probable. And then, what about a series of possible but improbable “explanations”?

Or do you actually believe the pressure was 0.0 bar and the flow rate
was exactly the same for days, even when Rossi said the machine was
turned off? Do you seriously believe that nonsense?!?

The thing is Jed, you immediately jump to conclusions without considering alternative possibilities.

Perhaps. Jed has been studying and following Rossi since, likely, before 2011. At some point, one settles. Human ingenuity is endless. “Alternative possibilities” may always be invented. However, has IHFB found some? I’m looking. I don’t prejudge, I have learned to set aside expectations — which I have, like everyone else — and see what is actually there. It’s part of my training.

I had never observed that kind of behavior from you until you became intimately involved with IH. It is a shame. 0.0 bar.. what? We need more information. 1 atmosphere? With DN80 piping and a slight vacuum created by the heat exchanger, you all of the sudden plausibly have the pressure instrument showing 0.0 bar. Are you sticking with DN40 as your final answer?

Jed is a major figure in the field, and has been granted some level of access on promise of confidentiality. I have been granted that (to a lesser degree than Jed). My project is facilitating research, creating structures and processes that will resolve the scientific question of LENR. It is not promotion of anything other than scientific research, which must be, overall, neutral. I.e., I’m not suggesting and working for research to “prove” something, but rather to resolve questions and confirm or disconfirm prior work. I would be delighted to find that the Rossi Effect is real and that he hits the market with a product. However, absent that showing and activity, and aside from bringing a certain level of attention, a double-edged sword, Rossi has harmed and continues to harm the field. Above, IHFB is arguing like the last valiant defender of the flame of truth, in a hostile world. “DN40” is a tiny detail, and Jed doesn’t actually know the pipe size, he has reports — apparently more than one, but he can correct that. IHFB has convinced himself that the pipe was DN80. While that affects some of the arguments seen, it’s irrelevant to others. By focusing on where he thinks he can win, IHFB misses the trees in front of him in favor of an imaginary forest.

0.0 bar has a very clear meaning, if it is the reading of a gauge. Because that meaning is impossible, we — starting with Murray — interpret it as 0.0 barG. Atmospheric pressure, by definition, i.e., the actual pressure, not merely nominal pressure, pressure varies with altitude and the weather. If the system is open at the other end, as it appears it is, i.e., the “other end” is the internal tank to which system cooling water is returned, then we have an issue of what creates high flow. There is an obvious possible answer which has been rarely mentioned: a pump in the customer area, after the heat exchanger. This pump creates low pressure there, allowing high flow with 0.0 bar in the steam line. Peter Gluck thinks there must be a pump there, before the flow meter. He might be right, but it would not be the E-cat pumps.

The flow rate was exactly the same for days probably because the granularity of measurement apparently was 1000 kg/h for this flow meter, and once you dial in the pumps, the variance is quite small, as has been pointed out numerous times here by different people. You refuse to consider these as explanations, but that doesn’t mean that alternate possibilities don’t exist.

Within the restricted world of IHFB’s attention, he can construct alternate scenarios. First of all, the flow meter was the wrong meter for the application, because of the 1000 kg increments of the flow meter reading. This would not be a rate reading, it would be integrated water flow. The meter is being operated below specified minimum flow, which, as pointed out, could produce lower flow readings, not higher. However, in the contrary direction, pipe volume occupied by other than water, typically air, could produce higher readings than actual water flow. Depending on what happens in the customer area, there could be extensive error. One of the kinds of pumps used with steam condensers uses an injected fluid or gas; this would work with air or water. It would create the vacuum needed, but could also fill the pipe largely with air.

Absent some kind of pressure manipulation in the customer area, and with the internal tank being also at 0.0 barG, there is a difficult problem, but it gets worse.

As to the even when “machine was turned off.” What machine? Which one was turned off? The plant was composed of multiple conglomerations of e-cat reactors grouped into “tigers,” with backups to spare. We have no idea what was actually going on!

The question refers to variance in the number of “machines” operating. This particular issue is complicated and I have not been following all the discussions. At some point perhaps I will review this. What is the correlation between:

  1. The daily flow
  2. The input power
  3. The Johnson reports of delivered power (it was always either 750 or 1000 KW).

“We have no idea” is not true. We have ideas, indications, and some evidence. IHFB’s position is obvious: because the evidence is strongly indicating that something was off about the “Test,” he is making the “you have not proven it” defense. But we don’t need to prove anything. We are simply, for the most part, observers, noticing this or that. Some of us have agendas like proving that we are right, we were always right, unlike the rest of you. If only they had listened to good, sensible people, IH could have saved themselves millions of dollars. However, what I notice with IH is that they seem to be over $20 million ahead, with more money on tap if they need it.

Also, the laws of thermodynamics have not been repealed. You cannot heat a small space with 1 MW of heat with no ventilation and survive. That is a fact. You can deny, deny, deny it, but facts are facts and this is indisputable, irrefutable proof that Rossi is lying and that you are deluded. You are ignorant of the fundamentals of physics and common sense.

And no, there was no invisible chimney.

I would not say “lying.” Rossi is, most likely, my opinion, delusional, but high-functioning in a way that can confuse the naive. I don’t think that IH was naive; rather, they recognized the alternate interpretations that IHFB wants to point out. They decided to find out. They found out. That, in my book, was a win, even if they’d have won much more if Rossi had a real technology and followed the Agreement.

But there was ventilation. And there was a chimney! This has been pointed out by Alan with photographic proof. The chimney is not sized to vacate ALL of the 1MW heat. But it could a large portion of it, and the rest could be used to heat vats of water, then mixed with cold water on its way down the drain, keeping it under the regulated heat levels. This too has been shown by others to be possible, including your friend Abd! You can deny, deny, deny, but there are plausible alternate explanations for nearly every puzzle.

Alternate, yes. Plausible, no, not collectively. I explored cooling with water last year, extensively, researching the water economics and regulations. As Jed points out, you cannot discharge 80 C water in the public sewer system, it would create visible effects and it would be illegal. The chimney shown is not in a location to be used for the suggested purpose. This is truly a major problem for the idea that Rossi was actually generating a megawatt. IHFB here, simply names some alternatives but does not actually explore them. I’d encourage him to do the math. Rossi originally claimed that whatever heat was not “consumed” by the customer was vented out the roof. Large endothermic process without a large movement of product doesn’t seem to be possible. A great one would be melting ice. But there would be a very large amount of ice needed, day in and day out. The simplest thing would be venting steam, but that would, of course, be highly visible.

It is obvious: IHFB is desperately clinging to whatever possibility allows him to “keep the faith.” In a way, this is noble, but he has added something that is not noble. He’s claiming that others are wrong. I like Richard Garwin’s “They say there is no doubt. But I doubt.” It’s honest, and that is, in fact, a great counterargument, except for one problem. It does not correctly state what “they say.” Garwin has cartoonized the “believers.” His “they must be doing something wrong” was a plain admission of his pseudoscientific position (more commonly called, in a case like this, “pseudoskeptical.”)

What comes to mind for me as the strongest issue is the combined claim of 0.0 barG steam pressure, constant water flow, about 104 C steam temperature and then an assumption of complete vaporization. I’m not the first to point out that if there is total vaporization, there is no control on the steam temperature, a small change in heat generation will produce a significant change in steam temperature.

[Thanks to THH for the link to his post covering this issue, it was that post that brought this out clearly.]

From the tightly constant normal daily total flow — a problem because of timing effects as point out by many — we must assume that the reactor metering pumps are set to create a constant flow, regardless of actual heat production.

As reactors aged, there would be a decline in efficiency, apparently. Why did Rossi refuel on the last day of the Test? If Rossi was able to tightly control heat production, to maintain the constant steam temperature at full vaporization, what was he varying? Originally, the main control was heat, but if he is operating in Self-Sustain mode, that’s gone. He isn’t controlling the cooling rate, we just defined that as constant. As well, what happens when the load changes?

There is a conclusion: bottom line, the flow data shown was not a recording of flow meter readings. It was calculated, at best. Or it was assumed. The flow meter does not show rate: it shows accumulated water flow, in units of a metric ton, 1000 kg. IHFB, with his “1000 kg/h” is not simply making a spelling error, he is missing the point. The apparent set rate is 1500 kg/h, but the meter would be just like a water company water meter, which doesn’t show rate, but accumulated usage, in units of 1000 kg.

Conversations: Simon Derricut 5

Simon writes long, thoughtful comments. Another. My comments, thoughts, reactions are in italics, indented.

Abd – it’s been obvious for a long time that Peter ignores evidence he doesn’t like. I’ve tried to show him that the evidence for 1MW doesn’t exist except for what Rossi’s metering shows, and I’ve given him calculations of how much water would be required to put that much energy down the drains (to both keep the locked room suitable for life and to avoid a heat-plume being visible and measurable by an IR survey), yet he still thinks that Rossi will provide an explanation that will be physically possible. As an experienced industrial engineer, he should be able to do the calculations himself and recognise that the claims are absurd as they stand. There comes a time when it’s not worth the time spent analysing the claims since Peter will not accept the results if they show that Rossi does not have LENR+. Of course, that’s what any sober analysis will show. Continue reading “Conversations: Simon Derricut 5”

Peter Gluck and the Temple of Doom

Hope springs eternal. Throw enough mud at a wall and some will stick. Fools rush in where angels fear to tread. A sucker is born every minute. La, la, la, I can’t hear you! Please explain!

Peter Gluck has been vilifying cold fusion heroes, now, since the filing of Rossi v. Darden. Before that he mostly confined himself to disparaging basic LENR research as useless, weak, a dead end, whereas his “LENR+”, now, is the savior of humanity and the Nobel Prize would not be enough as a reward. How about $89 million of someone else’s money for a start? Continue reading “Peter Gluck and the Temple of Doom”

If I repeat it enough, it will become true

or, alternatively, if they didn’t get it the first time, if I keep claiming I proved it, surely they will recognize The Truth and agree with me.

This is the apparent position of Asocoli65 on LENR Forum, who keeps beating the same drum he has apparently beaten since 2011. Here is the latest incarnation of his idea:

Ascoli65 wrote:

And, again, could you explain me, please, how his [Rossi’s] geniality could have induced some “credentialled academics” who teach Physics in a prestigious University to unintentionally write in the calorimetric report that the steam was “checked to be completely dry” by using a “HP474AC probe”, an instrument which is not suited at that scope, and, above all, which didn’t appear in any of the many photos or video frames available after the January 14, 2011 demo?

To Ascoli, this was a blatantly obvious smoking gun, and that nobody else picked up on this proof of … of what? He is hinting that this is so preposterous that there must be some other dark force operating.

What’s the basis for his claim? Continue reading “If I repeat it enough, it will become true”

And now for something completely different. Links!

The discussion on LENR Forum that I covered yesterday fell into a series of Planet Rossi trolls doing what PR trolls do: repeat the same stuff over and over, hoping it will stick. Sometimes, eventually, that stuff stands because nobody bothers to answer it Yet Again. Victory! Proven! Nobody Could Answer! So, bored by this and the constant temptation to point out how Stupid it all is, I noticed mention by a concern troll of a Marianne Macy article that I had not read. And that led to more articles, some I had not noticed before, some that I had, and some that I read now with new understanding. Join me in a ride through Reality, it’s fun. Continue reading “And now for something completely different. Links!”

Dewey Weaver and the Temple of Doom

Okay, the title may be meaningless. So sue me.

Because the recent IH disclosures have revealed the contract between Industrial Heat and Dewey Weaver, there has been much blogviation over this. Aha! they proclaim. We knew it! He is Paid by Industrial Heat!

But that has been obvious for a long time, that Dewey was working for Industrial Heat — in addition to being an investor in it. This has nothing to do with whether information from Dewey can be trusted or not, other than the obvious necessary caution. It means that the man probably knows some things that the rest of us don’t know. Anyone who will take all statements from someone in Dewey’s position as Gospel Truth would be foolish. Dewey makes mistakes, among other things, and then much of what he has written is clearly not factual, but judgment. Judgment is conclusory in nature, and it’s not difficult to tell the difference between testimony from knowledge and the expression of conclusions, though sometimes circumstances may be confused. I.e., I might say that X is true, but the reality — and I’d say this if asked — could be that So-and-so told me X is true, and I trust So-and-so. That is why it must always be possible to cross-examine witnesses, to tease out fact from conclusions.

In a legal matter it is up to the judge and/or the jury to come to conclusions. Witnesses provide fact as grist for that mill, and judges and juries assess the probity of testimony and its implications, and attorneys may present arguments for this or that interpretation, advancing the interests of their clients.

This — and the other blogs — is not a court, a brilliant observation which has been made by many. We are the peanut gallery. However, some people who read these blogs might be makers somewhere, somewhen, somehow. We are interested in and discuss Rossi v. Darden because it’s there, or because we have some axe to grind, or some critical interest to protect. What I find hilarious, in particular, are those who say, “this is all useless to discuss, because the court will decide,” and who then argue strongly for some position, often in ways blatantly contrary to the evidence available, and full of contempt for other views.

What’s true is that almost none of this discussion will have any influence on the outcome of Rossi v. Darden, but it may help us understand it.

(It is possible that some of us may come across something that was overlooked by the attorneys. It can happen. )

Most of the issues are already laid out well enough to make predictions. Such predictions are not certainties. There may be a Wabbit. If we are so lucky as to see a Wabbit, our entire perspective on life can change. But we don’t expect to see one when we get up in the morning, do we?

So, Dewey Weaver is being discussed on LENR Forum, and Peter Gluck, who wrote he was going to abstain from comment on LF, didn’t. We are not surprised.

Eric Walker pointed to the Industrial Heat Memorandum of Law that provided so much information about Deep River Ventures, i.e., Dewey’s LLC … so I’m starting with this, a rock tossed in the river. Splashes? Ripples? How deep is the river? Continue reading “Dewey Weaver and the Temple of Doom”

Conversations: Pweet

Pweet posted a comment, and it brings up some issues worthy of a blog post. We seem to be establishing a Conversations series here, creating connections and understandings. This will, I expect, expand and will greatly expand when we have more users here with Author privileges. Eventually, we will have a governing structure that is not Abd Says, but here is where we start. Every real journey starts Here, not in some imaginary place.

Before I cover Pweet’s comment, some history. Googling the name, besides a lot of porn (I have no idea why, except that the porn pages have thousands of words at the bottom to trick Google into displaying them), I found what may have been my best post ever to LENR-Forum, put up shortly before I was banned, as a response to Pweet speaks and Gluck responds. As can be expected at my age, I had forgotten about it, though I did immediately recognize it.

As usual with LENR Forum, what might be useful or cogent or thought-provoking is buried in the avalanche of dreck. There is no process for creating or measuring consensus, other than a crude upvote/downvote system that doesn’t sort posts, so to find anything of value takes massive work which mostly isn’t done. We could set up a rating system here that would allow finding the Best Posts on any forum, and that can be done with overall neutrality. However, that’s a suggestion from a chief, a tribal elder. Are there any Indians?

Looking for the original Ego Out posts, I came across one of the strong evidences that Rossi lies. So why not collect these? Rossi Lies.

Little by little, we go far. And for one of those massive Lomax diversions, see this page, which shows how blogs create rumors that are passed on as fact. I knew that aphorism from the Spanish, which he covers, but also from the Arabic, “shweya shweya.” Now, where were we?  Continue reading “Conversations: Pweet”

Conversations: Simon Derricutt 3

Simon again. Quoted in full, my comments in indented italics.

The only evidence that points to the 1MW having been produced is the ERV report, with the quantity of water turned to steam and the measured temperature of that steam. As has been noted many times, the data we’ve heard about doesn’t seem consistent with what might reasonably be expected as a set of real measurements, but it is nevertheless the data that exists.

It exists in a sense, yes. That is, there is a report, incompletely presented, just the data tables without explanatory material, and without attestation of any kind.  Continue reading “Conversations: Simon Derricutt 3”

Attracting flies with vinegar

For many years, I’ve tended to write reactively. This was powerful:: 

Powerful to a degree. What is more powerful is the deliberate creation of useful and/or attractive content. But still, I look around and take themes from what I see. And what is see is, often, Someone is Wrong on the Internet. My ontology tells me this is bullshit. I don’t even believe in Wrong. But, dammit! They are wrong, wrong, I tell you!

For two days I’ve been gathering a study of the posts of Dewey Weaver, and it’s taking a lot of time, for obvious reasons. The occasion was a repetition of old claims that Dewey is unreliable. Some of this is based on a claim that he is biased. Well, duh!!!

Of course he is biased, it would be absolutely amazing if he were not. But he is also knowledgeable, he is an IH insider, the only one we know about who is writing in the public forums. Dewey states a lot of opinion and judgment and what might be called bluster — though it might also be called knowledgeable prediction. I’ve been looking for fact, i.e., things that Dewey has written that are factual in nature, rather than judgmental. It is not difficult to discriminate. Bias can certainly appear in what facts — or alleged facts — one selects to mention, but it would be foolish to discard facts because they come from someone possibly biased, rather, the possible bias is simply another element in our process of filtering information. So has Dewey provided unreliable information? That is a question that can be answered, to a degree, with research.

That research, of course, distracts me from the All Important Latest Bullshit on the blogs. Then I look, and OMG! … yatta yatta. Continue reading “Attracting flies with vinegar”

LENR Forum messcellany

But first, an interesting post from a newbie:

WMartin wrote:

[from the point of view of a pipefitter, something is off about “the pictures of the conex holding the ecat”].

Yes. And Rossi vigorously excluded people with experience from his demonstrations, this was all obvious by the end of 2011. “Conex” is a shipping box, it would refer to the storage containers used by Rossi for the 1 MW plant. Martin did not point to the photos. However, his comment is devastating. Something is way off about the “1 MW Plant,” this is merely one more piece of junk on the pile.

Now, to the mess. Ascoli65 brought up some old stuff. The apparent theme is that Rossi is a tool of nefarious forces. Continue reading “LENR Forum messcellany”

If our knowledge expands, is that “backpedalling”?

A remarkable post on LENR Forum — and posts like this are part of the reason that most scientists stay away.

IH Fanboy wrote:

[17 alleged examples of Dewey or Jed “misinformation.”] Here, I look at them, having known for a long time the tactic of presenting “overwhelming evidence” that vanishes when examined. Is that happening here?

Conclusion: IH Fanboy was creating noise, personally attacking Dewey and Jed, in a highly misleading way, with the effect of distracting from new information from Dewey about the lawsuit.

Continue reading “If our knowledge expands, is that “backpedalling”?”

Living in a fog

Planet Rossi is enshrouded in fog. Some of the fog may be deliberately produced, of the nature of FUD; however, much of it is simply wishful thinking that interprets evidence in certain ways, and is not even aware of the interpretation, it imagines it is declaring fact.

The Request for Hearing filed by Rossi on Tuesday is seeking a Protective Order. The Motion is extremely brief. The title:

NOTICE OF HEARING (add-ons – to be heard if time permits) 

And then the text is in a box, unusual as well:

Plaintiffs’ Motion for Protective Order As to the Depositions of J.M. Products, Inc., United States Quantum Leap, LLC, Fulvio Fabiani, and The Boeing Company

There is no clue what this is about. There are, as discussed, two kinds of Protective Order. The one that there is a stipulation about is about protecting disclosed information, already disclosed. This may be different, this may be attempting to prevent information from being disclosed, and, if so, it does make sense that this would not be described in public, more than it has been.

On E-Cat World, Frank Acland posted:

I believe this is the first time I have heard mention of Boeing in connection with Rossi, and Boeing has not been brought up in the court case until now. The only possible connection that I can think of is that Rossi has said in the past that he had been doing some kind of research involving a jet engine, and there was some kind of connection with an aerospace company — but as usual he was pretty vague about it all.

It sounds like whatever the depositions here are, that Rossi’s team is seeking a protective order, which means they don’t want the information in the depositions to be made public. So we might not find out what Boeing’s involvement might be. But it’s interesting to see them mentioned.

This was reasonable speculation.

Ged wrote:

We know Rossi was investigating the use of the QuarkX output for jet engines. Boeing most likely would have just consulted Rossi on what output, tolerance, and other design conditions would be necessary to work with different jet engine designs, and seen the data regarding all that. Maybe they even went as far as doing simulations. This would explain why Boeing is appearing on the Leonardo’s third parties’ side of the table.

What I notice is “Leonardo’s third parties’ side of the table.” There is no indication of Boeing being on “Rossi’s side.” Rossi previously opposed subpoenas for uninvolved parties (ie., his bank, and the telephone service provider).

 barty wrote:

According to Dewey Weaver (investor in IH and good friend of Thomas Darden) Boeing was testing the E-Cat together with IH: (LENR Forum link).

Well done, barty. Straight information, clearly attributed, including the affiliation of Dewey. How this was taken:

Ged wrote:

This is the first we have heard of this… Dewey is also extremely biased (monetarily and personally! Can’t get more biased than that) and has already heavily and intentionally mislead with statements about this case many times before, as we have seen as more data is released (as well as used absurd ignorance/hyperbol like the place melting and the heat being visible from space).

That’s a personal attack without evidence. “…. heavily and intentionally mislead.” I have never seen an example of that. Dewey is not a careful witness, writing like a scientist. He is, as stated, a friend of Darden and an investor — and a consultant for Industrial Heat. This is not any secret, and it’s obvious. Dewey has strong opinions. However, this would be a simple fact, the relationship of IH and Boeing. (The place melting would be hyperbole; it merely would get too hot for human habitation, if a megawatt were being dissipated in that warehouse without heat handling equipment, so … what was “misleading” about a little hyperbole, easily recognized as such or at least marginal? Some stuff might have melted, in fact, with a megawatt. Don’t carry a chocolate bar into the place! I don’t recall seeing that statement, but Dewey wrote quite a lot on Mats’ blog and elsewhere. “Visible from space” is quite possible, for a megawatt dissipated in a warehouse. Depends on what one was looking with, of course, but that much heat should be visible in the IR from a satellite, and, in fact, it is quite possible that IH purchased such images instead of hiring a helicopter, which is what I’d thought they might have done. If Dewey said “visible from space,” I’d certainly consider it possible! It makes sense, but not to someone who will knee-jerk reject anything from such a biased source.

In short, I don’t believe him or anyone till we get more actual information.

There is no basis for considering it a lie. It’s testimony, “information.” Sure, one may want to see corroboration, but if we consider the side Ged is arguing on, the constant flow of disinformation from Rossi, with a series of clear lies, exposed by uncontroverted evidence, and this comment about Dewey stands out in its full ridiculousness. Sure. Wait and see … but meanwhile, what is stronger, baseless speculations or actual testimony from someone likely to know?

Could be Boeing just made or leased some important piece of equipment and that is the extent of their involvement, or gave some consulting not directly related to the E-cat (like consulting on how to build a jet engine), and much less than actually testing one. Considering they are showing up on Rossi’s side and not being brought out by IH, that also is suggestive (could be they are the ones behind JMP in that case, that is how baseless we can speculate with such meager info on this surprise appearance).

One could speculate endlessly, it is always possible. However, none of these are at all reasonable in the sense of being substantially likely. Further, Rossi has actually commented on this, and this more or less nails it.

It’s hilarious: his attorneys have told him over and over, he claims, not to comment on the case, but …. he does.

    • Darius

      Dr Rossi, Now there comes a new claim that Boeing tested the Ecat for/with IH, and it did not work for them, were you present during this demonstration?

    • Andrea Rossi

      I never knew of this demo and I do not know with which apparatus it has been done. I apprehended of it during the litigation. The replications and tests I have been informed of from September 2013 through February 2016 are the ones on the base of which Cherokee Fund Partners-IH have collected 250 millions in UK and China. No further comment.
      Warm Regards,

Now, Rossi lies, so we cannot assume this is true. However, take it straight: Rossi did not know of the relationship with Boeing “until the litigation.” This matches Dewey’s story, this was between IH and Boeing. Then, of course, Rossi introduces his meme about $250 million from UK and China, which has, so far, no support. He continues the drumbeat about Cherokee being involved, when it has been Industrial Heat from the beginning. Yes, Darden got entree by being Cherokee principals, but Cherokee would have no business investing in Rossi. This was something Darden and Vaughn wanted to do, personally — and obviously.

Now, this is fascinating: If Rossi doesn’t know anything about the testing (probably not “demo”)  — and I would expect IH to have arranged fully independent testing, with Rossi not present, very much with Rossi not present! — then why a Protective Order motion?

This was last-minute, tacked into today’s hearing. If there is a difficult issue, I’d expect a temporary Order while they argue it.

One thing is clear from the Rossi comment, assuming he is not lying. This was not about Rossi and Boeing collaborating in some way. All that speculation was just typical Planet Rossi, as Dewey pointed out on LENR Forum:

Dewey wrote:

Bob – they’ll continue to create alternate realities as long as they possibly can. Fake news is real news on Planet Rossi.

Update, February 10, 2017:

“Darius” asked again.

February 9, 2017 at 1:34 PM
Dr Rossi, According to the source on LENRForum, IH did in fact present a ecat to Boeing and that it did not work. That would seem highly unusal that the priciple engineer was not part of such an important presentation?

Andrea Rossi
February 9, 2017 at 6:45 PM
No comment.

Rossi deletes spam and other garbage. It’s clear that, at the very least, he approves what he wants to be seen. Most observers seem to have concluded that many posts on JONP are sock puppets, i.e., Rossi himself.

Here, he makes an argument that would be typical for Rossi. How could one expect the ecat to work without Rossi being present? An easy answer: of course not, since it never has worked without Rossi Grease.

If Dewey is correct, IH asked Rossi to assist with their work to verify the technology, and Rossi refused, being too busy with the “test under way.” What Dewey has claimed now is that they asked or allowed Boeing to do their own verification. This would not be a “presentation.” Presentations are what Rossi has done for years. He’s put on a show, a “demonstration.” But what everyone sane wanted, and a real commercial effort would absolutely need, would be devices that can be made and work according to clear instructions (such as a Patent!), not with Rossi Grease.

This is so obvious that it’s a complete wonder that Rossi supporters manage to show their faces from time to time. MrSelfSustain just changed his user name on LENR Forum to THEDEBATEISUSELESS, and then dropped a LANCB message.

Get out of the new road if you can’t lend a hand

Among many other things, I was a folksinger, and strong in my repertoire was The Times They Are A-Changin’. The words are worth reviewing.

Yesterday, I published Age, the New Age, Believers, and Peter Gluck. It was a series of observations about LENR-Forum and the interaction there of Dewey Weaver and Peter Gluck. Dewey was frank with Peter, and Peter didn’t like it one bit. I was also frank with Peter, here, and ditto.

We are both aging, as are others, and there are some who hate being reminded of it, especially as age begins to affect how we relate to others. None of this should be any surprise. None of us get out of this place alive.

The aging of LENR scientists, and the effects of that, is a no-touch issue, and because of that, nothing is done, it being believed, apparently, that aging is like race, nothing can be done about it, so bringing it up is terminally rude. But plenty can be done, often. I have not been willing to give up. Not surprisingly, this post stirred up a shitstorm on LF. All of this reveals community dysfunction (and a few hints of function). Instead of starting a new post, I will document the response on LF: Get out of the new road. The original post, so far unedited:

Continue reading “Get out of the new road if you can’t lend a hand”

Breakdowns create breakthroughs

On LENR Forum, Rigel wrote:

Mods, a humble request. Let these words stand. Let us clean up our own mess. Strong people have strong opinions. Please

This was after some extensive flame warring and mutual recriminations, of which a small part was discussed yesterday on And now for something completely different.

Bob then did something rare enough to be remarkable. He admitted error, here and on LF.

IH Fanboy responded:

I must say, Abd is one of a kind. Looks like we have recursive forums. Perhaps someone should start a new one that critiques Abd’s, and so on, and so forth.

Thanks, IHFB. Continue reading “Breakdowns create breakthroughs”

And now for something completely different

or same old, same old. Academic discussion has a basic rule: quotations should be attributed and accurate. If paraphrasing is used, quotation marks should not be used to imply exact quotations. If words are omitted, they should be shown by ellipsis. I attempt to follow these rules, and here we see an example of what happens when one does not.

Here, there was a quotation error that was then surprisingly persistent, but eventually, the author recognized his error and corrected it, see the Update.

Continue reading “And now for something completely different”

Age, the New Age, Believers, and Peter Gluck

After the new software version was installed on LENR Forum, the number of comments per page was increased to 30. This, of course broke all incoming links to comments as paged (sometimes done when there was a series of comments of interest at some point). More about this below. In my last post, I wrote about Planet Rossi; some users protesting about being identified with Planet Rossi are objecting to it as rude. However, this is a classic case of calling a spade a spade, i.e., pointing out the obvious. “Planet Rossi” does not mean, in itself, “collection of idiots.” However, there appears to be a high density of those willing to continue expressing preposterous positions, as if they were perfectly reasonable, while objecting to others pointing this out.

Here, Peter Gluck writes in response to Dewey Weaver. This is a long-term blogger on LENR arguing with someone who has actually supported LENR research with his own money, time, and effort. I find it of interest to review. Peter is, of course, welcome to comment, even though he normally rejects detailed, evidenced comments as being too long.

Continue reading “Age, the New Age, Believers, and Peter Gluck”

Planets and world-views

I think that Dewey Weaver coined the term “Planet Rossi.” He was referring to Rossi fans, and the implication is that these have some sort of common world-view. I picked it up, because it’s a convenient and relatively non-judgmental way of referring to an obvious constellation of opinions, beliefs, memes, often traceable to Rossi Says.

Planet MrSelfSustain
IH Fanboy

Continue reading “Planets and world-views”

OMG! An *actual* conversation based on knowledge!

I saw a great post by Alain Coetmeur on lenr-forum. I looked back a little and found cogent comments from Eric Walker and H.G., but the conversation sprouted like the lotus, in muck from Axil, a Reliable Source of strong opinion using snow-blower scientific word salad. Continue reading “OMG! An *actual* conversation based on knowledge!”

I don’t care about facts, who’s right?

I’ve been writing on-line since the 1980s, on the W.E.L.L., where I was a moderator. I was excited about the possibilities of computer conferencing, where a complete record existed (normally) of the entire conversation. I had extensive group discussion experience and had noticed that people would argue about what happened previously, who had said what, and what it meant. So, here, it would be possible to resolve disputes based on fact. Or would it? Continue reading “I don’t care about facts, who’s right?”

Blizzard of blogviation

Discussion on lenr-forum about the new filings shows a phenomenon often encountered: an obvious argument is brought up, and someone says that this was considered and rejected long ago. But there is no actual reference, and the fora do not actually have a decision-making mechanism, usually, so this is just an opinion. I have seen it happen that a view was advanced and essentially crushed by many responses, but what I saw today was not like that. Rather, people had mostly quite talking about it, until a new occasion arose. This is coming from the newer, grittier version of the old IH Exhibit 5, Peter Gluck’s favorite punching bag, but it is now actual data, apparently, from the … ta daaaa!!! Penon Report! “Final,” it says. Continue reading “Blizzard of blogviation”